Discussion:
colorado jobs moving to india
(too old to reply)
nina
2004-06-13 19:36:10 UTC
Permalink
In a city of squalor, technology has constructed an empire




SQUEEZED INTO A TAXI HURTLING along Hosur Road, it's easy for visitors to
forget they are in Bangalore, India's Silicon Valley, and America's back
office.
Hosur Road is dilapidated and dangerous. Cows sacred to Hindus nose through
burning garbage. Bodies, dead, drunk or sick, sprawl in gutters as a mass of
humanity teems above them.
More than 300 pedestrians died on Bangalore's mean streets last year. Hosur
Road, a four-lane thoroughfare with few crosswalks or traffic lights, is one
of the worst in the city, where 800 people are killed in crashes every year.
The road, a half-world away from Colorado Springs, could hardly be more
different from Garden of the Gods Road, our city's technology hub, where
giants Intel, Agilent and MCI provide thousands of high-paying jobs.
For all its grime and gridlock, Hosur Road is the main drag to Electronics
City, an assemblage of gleaming marble and glass buildings where Indian tech
companies have taken root and U.S. companies under pressure to cut costs are
mushrooming.
It is in places such as Bangalore's Electronics City that Colorado Springs'
high-tech industry faces a challenge from low-paying, aggressive Indian
companies with a highly-educated workforce.
A hiring frenzy is taking place on Hosur Road.
Wipro, a billion-dollar software services company, hired 3,500 people last
year. Infosys, a competitor, hired 10,000 engineers and plans to add another
10,000 this year. HTMT, which provides customer services, may double its
workforce to 3,000 this year.
By contrast, Colorado Springs' high-tech jobs - which significantly boosted
the area's wealth during the 1990s - are in decline and may never return.
Nearly 7,500 of those jobs have vanished since the recession began four
years ago.
At least 1,300 jobs moved overseas to places like Bangalore, where software
engineers earn $20,000 a year - about one-third what U.S. starting engineers
make - and call-center employees start at $250 a month.
"The IT market is better in Bangalore than it is here," says Rick
Nashleanas, who started a recruiting company in Colorado Springs after
selling his mainframe software business to a German firm in 1996.
Nashleanas has known U.S. tech workers who now make pizza, sell cars and
drive trucks to survive. "Things are getting better, but it's never going to
be the same as the market was in 1999," he says.
That is why Colorado Springs is deeply affected by what is happening in this
growing sweatbox of a city 11,000 miles away.
In a word, jobs.
By some estimates more engineers are in Bangalore than in Silicon Valley,
and 40,000 people hold Ph.D.s.
The corporate signs hanging in every corner of Bangalore say it all:
Familiar firms such as Agilent, Oracle, Intel and Hewlett-Packard, companies
with employees in Colorado Springs, are all here, creating thousands of jobs
Americans will never get.
Despite Bangalore's shortcomings - widespread poverty, poor services and the
unexpected upheaval of May's national elections that forced former Prime
Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee to resign - the city has become something of a
ominous threat to Colorado's high-tech industry.
Bangalore in just 10 years has achieved the level of techno-world myth. With
more than six million residents, the city puts a human face on the debate
about outsourcing, the controversial shift of U.S. jobs overseas.
Bangalore sits near the southern tip of the vast Indian subcontinent, 800
miles north of the equator. During its 500-year history, the city was ruled
by maharajahs and British overseers while tigers roamed scrub forests
nearby.
Today, protected by distance from India's arch-enemy Pakistan and from
politicians in New Delhi, Bangalore has developed into a defense, research,
education and industrial hub.
More than 1,300 foreign and Indian tech companies with 150,000 employees are
represented here.
Texas Instruments, Sun Microsystems, General Electric Co. and other
prominent U.S. firms rub shoulders with India's homegrown giants Wipro,
Infosys, and Tata Consultancy Services, all billion-dollar companies.
"We've got a small, mini-U.S. here, a mini-Silicon Valley, a mini-Boston,
and a mini-Seattle," says professor S. Sadagopan, who runs the Indian
Institute of Information Technology, one of the city's 11 engineering
schools churning out hundreds of engineers a year.
The outsourcing tide is escalating.
Forrester Research, a Massachusetts technology consulting firm, last month
said white-collar jobs are flowing overseas faster than first thought.
In 2002, Forrester predicted 3.3 million jobs would shift to India and other
countries by 2015. The forecast touched off a furor about outsourcing, which
a broad range of critics agree has become a hot-button issue stirring
business and political debate this year.
Forrester now says the losses will come sooner. By the end of next year,
830,000 jobs will have been shipped abroad, 242,000 more than earlier
predicted.
Despite a backlash caused by media coverage, companies aren't abandoning
plans to move jobs to India, where they can hire software engineers and
fluent English speakers to provide back-office services such as accounting,
payroll and help-desk work for thousands of dollars less per year.
The technology sector will be hardest hit - 181,000 jobs by next year,
followed by business, management, sales and legal work.
The job flow makes Ravi Ramu smile.
"We wonder sometimes," says Ramu, chief financial officer of MphasiS BFL, an
Indian software developer and back-office outsourcing firm, "when we will
become the Silicon Valley of the United States."
Although Ramu's remark is a joke, it's a reminder of similar comments that
have stoked American self-doubt, when the nation feels economically
vulnerable and not in control.
In the early 1990s, many thought Japan's economy would overtake the U.S.
economy. A Japanese politician made headlines in 1992 by calling American
workers lazy and illiterate.
At the height of the Cold War, Soviet premier Nikita Khruschev rattled
Americans when he said, "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side.
We will bury you." A year later, in 1957, the Soviet Union launched Sputnik
and spawned the space race.
Today, the transfer of white-collar jobs to low-wage countries is driving
Americans' anxiety. Invisible during the boom years of the 1990s,
outsourcing suddenly is the bogeyman blamed for America's jobless economic
recovery.
IN INDIA, OUTSOURCING'S GROUND ZERO is Bangalore. It is a drought-stricken
city of simultaneous construction and rot. The city has about 400 officially
recognized slums, where 20 percent of the population lives. Alongside tent
cities and rubble-filled fields, gleaming buildings spring up to provide
state-of-the art workplaces for thousands of educated software and
call-center workers.
"There are contractors who will take a piece of land, put up a building,
usually not more than three levels. Excepting for the computers and the
instruments and the people, everything is ready in 100 days," says Sadagopan
of the Indian Institute of Information Technology.
The landscaped campus of his graduate institute was built in 87 days.
Founded four years ago, the school pours out doctoral graduates destined for
careers in India's $15 billion technology sector.
"We never have to worry about placing the students. Everybody gets placed,"
Sadagopan says.
With 1 billion Indians to choose from, companies select only the best. A
university degree is mandatory, even for call-center work. For every 100
applicants, companies might hire five.
Software jobs are even tougher to get. Infosys hired 1 percent of the 1
million engineers who sought work with the software development company last
year.
Once hired, employees enter a work world where only the best minds thrive.
More than 65 percent of the 1,700 scientists and engineers at General
Electric's John F. Welch Technology Center in Bangalore have advanced
degrees. One in five have worked somewhere else in the world.
"In Bangalore, we have one of our four global research centers (the others
are in Shanghai, Germany and upstate New York). It supports research and
development work for all of our businesses around the world," GE spokesman
Peter Stack says.
The center, named for former GE chairman Jack Welch, opened in 2000 with 275
engineers, scientists and researchers working in a 183,000 square-foot
building.
By 2002, the payroll had expanded to 1,525, and the campus grew to more than
a half-million square feet, supporting research and development work for GE'
s worldwide businesses.
"India represents a particularly valuable source of intellectual capital, in
terms of employees who are English-literate and conversant and the product
of an excellent higher educational system," Stack says.
GE has been in India since 1902. Its Indian work force is 20,000 and
growing. The company's New Delhi-based GE Capital International Services
unit provides back-office services such as accounting, payroll and help-desk
work to the company's 11 businesses worldwide.
While GE's presence in India is growing, the company has maintained its U.S.
payroll at 160,000 for the past decade, Stack says.
"We've aggressively invested in the higher-tech, higher-growth part of our
business and work hard to sustain a technical advantages in as many of those
businesses as possible," Stack says.
High unemployment in other parts of India, as well as the prospect of jobs
that pay more than the country's $2,600 per-capita income, contribute to
Bangalore's massive population growth. Since 2000, the number of people
living in the city has increased by almost 1 million.
As a result, Bangalore has a more diverse population than bigger Indian
cities, says Sadagopan, who likens it to New York. Both are cosmopolitan,
polyglot cities with large ethnic populations.
Less than half of Bangalore speaks, Kannada, the language of the state of
Karnataka, which helps explain why English still is spoken widely and
cricket is the favorite sport 57 years after the last British governor
departed.
The city has a tradition of welcoming outsiders thanks to a research culture
that began years ago. Nonmilitary research labs sprang up alongside the
military. Institutes are devoted to coconut, pulp, wood, plastic,
telecommunications and aeronautical engineering research.
"This city, if you go by per square feet, it has the highest number of
Ph.D.s in the world," Sadagopan says.
Small wonder that overseas outsourcing is unpopular in the United States.
By a 2-to-1 margin, according to a Harris poll, most Americans disagree with
President Bush's chief economic advisor, Greg Mankiw, who said outsourcing
is good for the economy.
More than seven of 10 Americans think U.S. companies should not replace
American information technology and call-center workers with cheaper Indian
workers, according to the poll.
Complicating the confusion are the benefits outsourcing bestows.
By shifting work to India, where a call-center operator earns $250 a month
and a software engineer makes one-fifth of a U.S. software engineer's
$60,000 salary, American companies stay competitive with foreign companies,
and consumers pay lower prices.
"We deliver extremely high-quality software. More than 92 percent of our
projects have been delivered on time and within budget," says Mohandas Pai,
director and chief financial officer of software developer Infosys.
Sending jobs offshore brings economic benefits, Indian executives say.
In America, many call-center jobs are viewed as undesirable, but Indian
workers see them as desirable and a step toward a career.
"They are people who want these jobs. These are 'aspirational' jobs," says
Akshaya Bhargava, chief executive officer of Progeon, a subsidiary of
Infosys. "They are motivated. I think a lot of people who come to work with
us are really building a career and they see this as the first step in their
career."
Pai thinks America's fears are overblown.
At most, about 240,000 jobs have gone to India during the past five or six
years, he says. That number is miniscule compared with employment in the
United States, which stands at 140 million.
"People say that, 10 years from now, there will be a shortage of labor in
the United States. I don't know what the number will be, but (the shortage)
will be there," says Pai, a jovial tycoon who sniffs at free-trade critics
and thinks Americans will come to see outsourcing's benefits.
OUTSOURCING HAS TAPPED AMERICANS' deep-seated fears about the economy, which
until March had generated practically no jobs to replace 3 million lost
since the recession began in 2001.
The loss - 2 percent of all jobs - is worse than during the jobless recovery
of the early 1990s, when employment never fell by more than 1.3 percent.
At the same time, the majority of the jobs lost since payrolls peaked three
years ago were the result of permanent changes in the U.S. economy and are
not coming back, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
As the economy has expanded since November 2001, when the recession ended,
businesses have put off hiring, stepped up automation and exported jobs to
India and other low-wage countries, the study suggests.
THE ROAD TO BANGALORE STRETCHES eastward halfway around the world from
Colorado Springs, 11œ time zones away. When a Colorado Springs
businessperson clocks out at 6 p.m., a new day dawns in Bangalore.
Indian companies exploit the half-day difference. Programmers in Bangalore
labor through the day while their U.S. counterparts sleep. Unhampered by
visas, borders or geographic distance, new software code zips across the
Internet, arriving in time for the start of business in America.
Low-tech call centers operate the same way.
Telemarketers work day shifts to reach Americans at home during the evening.
Technical support employees may toil through the night to solve computer
questions or reroute Internet connections of American consumers.
Traveling across Bangalore, it seems unlikely India could ever seriously
challenge the highly developed economies of First World countries such as
the United States and Japan.
Crushing poverty, unemployment and lack of development are everywhere in
India's fifth-largest city. Telephone and power services are spotty.
Forests of graceful flowering trees that cooled the city have been
sacrificed to rapid urbanization. Longtime residents say summer temperatures
have risen by 20 degrees. Shortages may force city officials to transport
water by train.
INDIA'S SILICON VALLEY
The payroll of tech firm MphasiS BFL will expand from 6,400 to 7,000 when it
finishes acquiring an Indian software company.
IBM is launching a technology center to provide design services for advanced
chips and hardware boards to companies across Asia.
Intel is investing $41 million in India to set up a Bangalore facility to
design and develop microprocessors. The world's biggest chip maker plans to
double its Indian staff to 2,000 by year's end.
Another U.S. chip maker, Advanced Micro Devices, is setting up an
engineering center to boost its microprocessor design program.
America Online has begun hiring software engineers for new Bangalore office.
Infosys, which hired 10,000 engineers last year, expects to add another
10,000 this year.
Progeon, the back-office unit of Infosys, hired 500 people during the first
three months of this year and will hire more.
--
***********************************************************************

Precisely the least, the softest, lightest, a lizard's rustling,
a breath, a flash, a moment - a little makes the way
of the best happiness.
- Frederich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra
Auntie Em
2004-06-14 04:24:49 UTC
Permalink
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working class"
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.

If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of work
that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't import them
for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP types don't have a
clue about.

America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.

Em
unknown
2004-06-14 04:52:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:24:49 -0500, "Auntie Em" <Auntie
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working class"
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of work
that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't import them
for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP types don't have a
clue about.
Are you suggesting that it is only the WASP types that may not be
interested in these jobs? I don't think so.

Old_Timer
Post by Auntie Em
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.
Em
t***@sbcglobal.net
2004-06-14 05:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working class"
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
That may well be true . . . but the sorriest lot of professionals I've ever
seen (ignorant bunch of liars, cheats, and crooks who traded factory
worker's health for $$$) work right here in Dallas, Texas. There's a bunch
of 'em who should be doing time in jail . . .
-Tock
Dan Birchall
2004-06-14 09:04:36 UTC
Permalink
the sorriest lot of professionals I've ever seen (ignorant bunch of
liars, cheats, and crooks who traded factory worker's health for $$$)
work right here in Dallas, Texas. There's a bunch of 'em who should
be doing time in jail . . .
Never been to Washington D.C., eh, Tock? ;)
--
Dan Birchall, Hilo HI - http://dan.birchalls.net/ - images, words, technology
t***@sbcglobal.net
2004-06-14 17:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Birchall
the sorriest lot of professionals I've ever seen (ignorant bunch of
liars, cheats, and crooks who traded factory worker's health for $$$)
work right here in Dallas, Texas. There's a bunch of 'em who should
be doing time in jail . . .
Never been to Washington D.C., eh, Tock? ;)
Dan Birchall, Hilo HI - http://dan.birchalls.net/ - images, words, technology
Sadly enough, that includes Washington, D.C.
-Tock
baron48
2004-06-14 15:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working class"
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
The feeling is mutual.

-Tom
james b
2004-06-14 15:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Em - I agree completely.
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working class"
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
Ditto for the Front Range. Ill-bred behavior seems to be the norm
here as well, even when these individuals are initially approached in
a polite manner.
Post by Auntie Em
If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of work
that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't import them
for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP types don't have a
clue about.
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.
If you look at employment stats by state, Colorado ranks 50th for job
growth.

- James B
nina
2004-06-14 16:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by james b
Em - I agree completely.
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working class"
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
Ditto for the Front Range. Ill-bred behavior seems to be the norm
here as well, even when these individuals are initially approached in
a polite manner.
I hate to chime in, but I agree. But I grew up in the South, so am
accustomed to a fair amount of
"gentility".
Scopophobic
2004-06-15 01:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by james b
If you look at employment stats by state, Colorado ranks 50th for job
growth.
Now I feel so much better knowing there is a job there for me whenever I want
it.
Justin
2004-06-14 18:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of
work that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't
import them for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP
types don't have a clue about.
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.
I think you're out of touch with reality. Some of the worst, most
apathetic, and downright rude people I've ever dealt with in restaurants,
motels, and stores have been people from other countries (plus throw in the
language barrier). You think jobs are going to India for their wonderful
customer service?!? It's the miniscule wages, the co's can pay these
folks.


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nina
2004-06-14 19:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin
Post by Auntie Em
If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of
work that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't
import them for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP
types don't have a clue about.
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.
I think you're out of touch with reality. Some of the worst, most
apathetic, and downright rude people I've ever dealt with in restaurants,
motels, and stores have been people from other countries (plus throw in the
language barrier). You think jobs are going to India for their wonderful
customer service?!? It's the miniscule wages, the co's can pay these
folks.
I dont like the ppl here much. But I have HATED all the customer service
people I have dealt with from India.
I have found the men to be WAY too pushy and forward and its been off
putting. I am not saying they are rude, but that
perhaps the cultural differences make it a bad fit.
The Real Bev
2004-06-14 20:49:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by nina
Post by Justin
Post by Auntie Em
If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of
work that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't
import them for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP
types don't have a clue about.
According to something I read a few years ago, Indians have cornered the
USA independent motel market.
Post by nina
Post by Justin
Post by Auntie Em
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.
I think you're out of touch with reality. Some of the worst, most
apathetic, and downright rude people I've ever dealt with in restaurants,
motels, and stores have been people from other countries (plus throw in the
language barrier). You think jobs are going to India for their wonderful
customer service?!? It's the miniscule wages, the co's can pay these
folks.
Indians speak English as a native language, at least the
citified/educated ones do. And faster than we do, which is unsettling.
Post by nina
I dont like the ppl here much. But I have HATED all the customer service
people I have dealt with from India.
I have found the men to be WAY too pushy and forward and its been off
putting. I am not saying they are rude, but that
perhaps the cultural differences make it a bad fit.
The few I've dealt with laughed way too much and insisted on following
their scripts, but I certainly wouldn't call them rude. I asked what
city the supervisor was in, but he wouldn't tell me. I really wanted to
hear him say 'Dallas' or something equally unbelievable.
--
Cheers,
Bev
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
This is Usenet. We *are* the trained body for dealing
with psychotics. -- A. Dingley
Nonymous
2004-06-14 21:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Post by nina
Post by Justin
Post by Auntie Em
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up
with
Post by The Real Bev
Post by nina
Post by Justin
Post by Auntie Em
them.
I think you're out of touch with reality. Some of the worst, most
apathetic, and downright rude people I've ever dealt with in restaurants,
motels, and stores have been people from other countries (plus throw in the
language barrier). You think jobs are going to India for their wonderful
customer service?!? It's the miniscule wages, the co's can pay these
folks.
Indians speak English as a native language, at least the
citified/educated ones do. And faster than we do, which is unsettling.
Yes, many if not most Indians speak English natively which Westerners don't
realize. They have to speak it, since there are so many varying dialects of
the Indian language across their country, that English is the only way to
can communicate amongst themselves. But yes, they speak it very fast, and
along with the strong accent, they might as well be speaking in a foreign
language.
Post by The Real Bev
Post by nina
I dont like the ppl here much. But I have HATED all the customer service
people I have dealt with from India.
I have found the men to be WAY too pushy and forward and its been off
putting. I am not saying they are rude, but that
perhaps the cultural differences make it a bad fit.
The few I've dealt with laughed way too much and insisted on following
their scripts, but I certainly wouldn't call them rude. I asked what
city the supervisor was in, but he wouldn't tell me. I really wanted to
hear him say 'Dallas' or something equally unbelievable.
I've found the men become a little arrogant if you ask them about something
they don't know about. i.e., they sorta take an attitude of "I've never
heard such a thing! *you* must be an idiot!". The women just play dumb:
"I've never heard such a thing; May I help you with something else?"
Atom1
2004-06-15 09:43:24 UTC
Permalink
"Nonymous" <***@nospam.net> wrote in message > I've found the men
become a little arrogant if you ask them about something
Post by Nonymous
they don't know about. i.e., they sorta take an attitude of "I've never
"I've never heard such a thing; May I help you with something else?"
Well this thread just begs the question, what is rude?
When I come back to the US it always takes a while to get used to driving
again (except NY or DC) because everyone drives defensively (yielding for
EVERYTHING- how you GO anywhere I'll never know) where we are taught more
aggressively.
When I visit Germany, it takes awhile to get used to eating your food as
it is served, but then I get back and I inevitably embarrass myself.
Michelle
Italy
Peter Bruells
2004-06-15 11:43:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Atom1
When I visit Germany, it takes awhile to get used to eating your food as
it is served, but then I get back and I inevitably embarrass myself.
Michelle
Italy
Huh? Which region in German would that be? Apart from the most
informal session, food that is being served doesn't get eaten unless
guest have been served, unless they received dispensation from other
guests - which they shouldn't need to give unless the restaurant
messes up - badly.
Atom1
2004-06-15 18:37:10 UTC
Permalink
When you are served at a restaurant it is the custom to eat as it's
brought. The theory is why keep it under a hot lamp to dry out in the
kitchen or worse cold. In the bigger cities with more tourists some are
catering to more Western style of wait until everyone has their food.
Michelle
Italy
Post by Peter Bruells
Post by Atom1
When I visit Germany, it takes awhile to get used to eating your food as
it is served, but then I get back and I inevitably embarrass myself.
Michelle
Italy
Huh? Which region in German would that be? Apart from the most
informal session, food that is being served doesn't get eaten unless
guest have been served, unless they received dispensation from other
guests - which they shouldn't need to give unless the restaurant
messes up - badly.
Peter Bruells
2004-06-16 12:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Atom1
When you are served at a restaurant it is the custom to eat as it's
brought. The theory is why keep it under a hot lamp to dry out in the
kitchen or worse cold. In the bigger cities with more tourists some are
catering to more Western style of wait until everyone has their food.
Yes, but in which country? The "start digging in while it's hot" is
considered bad style in most regions of Germany I'm aware of.
Atom1
2004-06-16 17:37:46 UTC
Permalink
If it's bad style, it's bad all over (unless they are a touristy area)
seemed the norm to me.
Michelle
Italy
Post by Peter Bruells
Post by Atom1
When you are served at a restaurant it is the custom to eat as it's
brought. The theory is why keep it under a hot lamp to dry out in the
kitchen or worse cold. In the bigger cities with more tourists some are
catering to more Western style of wait until everyone has their food.
Yes, but in which country? The "start digging in while it's hot" is
considered bad style in most regions of Germany I'm aware of.
The Real Bev
2004-06-15 20:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Atom1
Post by Nonymous
become a little arrogant if you ask them about something
they don't know about. i.e., they sorta take an attitude of "I've never
"I've never heard such a thing; May I help you with something else?"
Well this thread just begs the question, what is rude?
Rude, in this case, is not helping those you have been hired to help.
Insulting them takes it a step beyond rudeness, and I doubt if that
happens too often.
Post by Atom1
When I come back to the US it always takes a while to get used to driving
again (except NY or DC) because everyone drives defensively (yielding for
EVERYTHING- how you GO anywhere I'll never know) where we are taught more
aggressively.
That just means you do it better than we do. The essense of aggressive
driving is convincing your fellow motorists that you haven't seen them
and that if they don't yield you'll probably hit them.

In some communities, most of the drivers ARE oblivious to those around
them, in which case if you don't drive defensively you will end up
tangling with an elderly woman who drives a Lexus, has no license and
speaks no English.
Post by Atom1
When I visit Germany, it takes awhile to get used to eating your food as
it is served, but then I get back and I inevitably embarrass myself.
What, not enough garlic?
--
Cheers,
Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Rats cry when they hear about my life." -- Dilbert
Pete C
2004-06-15 20:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nonymous
Yes, many if not most Indians speak English natively which Westerners don't
realize. They have to speak it, since there are so many varying dialects of
the Indian language across their country, that English is the only way to
can communicate amongst themselves. But yes, they speak it very fast, and
along with the strong accent, they might as well be speaking in a foreign
language.
Hi,

One accent they can't understand is Scottish, even English people have
a hard time understanding it. Even so, a friend of mine was in an
Indian resteraunt in Scotland, and asked if they had any Chinese food,
to which the Indian waiter replied in a thick Scottish accent 'Do I
look like a Chinaman?'....

cheers,
Pete.
Arri London
2004-06-15 23:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
Yes, many if not most Indians speak English natively which Westerners don't
realize. They have to speak it, since there are so many varying dialects of
the Indian language across their country, that English is the only way to
can communicate amongst themselves. But yes, they speak it very fast, and
along with the strong accent, they might as well be speaking in a foreign
language.
Hi,
One accent they can't understand is Scottish, even English people have
a hard time understanding it. Even so, a friend of mine was in an
Indian resteraunt in Scotland, and asked if they had any Chinese food,
to which the Indian waiter replied in a thick Scottish accent 'Do I
look like a Chinaman?'....
cheers,
Pete.
LOL like the local Chinese takeaway I went to in London. All the staff
were Bengali.
The Real Bev
2004-06-16 00:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
Yes, many if not most Indians speak English natively which Westerners don't
realize. They have to speak it, since there are so many varying dialects of
the Indian language across their country, that English is the only way to
can communicate amongst themselves.
Well, there's Hindi.
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
But yes, they speak it very fast, and
along with the strong accent, they might as well be speaking in a foreign
language.
One accent they can't understand is Scottish, even English people have
a hard time understanding it. Even so, a friend of mine was in an
Indian resteraunt in Scotland, and asked if they had any Chinese food,
to which the Indian waiter replied in a thick Scottish accent 'Do I
look like a Chinaman?'....
LOL like the local Chinese takeaway I went to in London. All the staff
were Bengali.
Around here the French bakeries and donut shops are all run by Asians.
Especially interesting because Asians generally don't like sweets very
much.
--
Cheers,
Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"No one's life, liberty or property is safe while
the legislature is in session." -- Mark Twain
Gene Wirchenko
2004-06-16 20:50:10 UTC
Permalink
The Real Bev <***@myrealbox.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by The Real Bev
Around here the French bakeries and donut shops are all run by Asians.
Especially interesting because Asians generally don't like sweets very
much.
Which Asians are you referring to?

The Chinese sure seem to, both in Chinatown (Vancouver, British
Columbia, Canada) and in China (Wuhan, Hubei Province).

In Vancouver (British Columbia, Canada), there is an Indian
sweets company.

Maybe, it is historical availability affecting this. I did note
less sugar in some items than for the comparable item over here.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
The Real Bev
2004-06-16 22:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by The Real Bev
Around here the French bakeries and donut shops are all run by Asians.
Especially interesting because Asians generally don't like sweets very
much.
Which Asians are you referring to?
Chinese. Thais. At least the ones that I know. My mom likes to make
cookies, cake, etc. and share with her neighbors. The Chinese neighbors
(several sets) always tell her that they can't eat her stuff, it's too
sweet. The others gobble.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
The Chinese sure seem to, both in Chinatown (Vancouver, British
Columbia, Canada) and in China (Wuhan, Hubei Province).
In Vancouver (British Columbia, Canada), there is an Indian
sweets company.
I never think of India as being Asian, somehow. According to the Indian
movies I've seen, they regard marigold flowers as a treat. I tried
one. Blech.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Maybe, it is historical availability affecting this. I did note
less sugar in some items than for the comparable item over here.
And as long as we're talking about less-than-wonderful sweet stuff, pan
dulce is about as disappointing as it's possible to be :-( It looks so
pretty, too. The best desserts seem to come from colder countries...
--
Cheers,
Bev
---------------------------------------------
"The primary purpose of any government entity
is to employ the unemployable."
Atom1
2004-06-17 11:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Italian sweets are not very sweet. Desserts center more around fruit.
Figs are very popular as well as hazelnut, licorice and of course espresso
flavorings. I think it's the availability of sugar (price commiserates).
Breads and cakes are very dry and coarse. Oranges are a premium, no apples
or pineapple at regular markets.

England's sweets are are similar in sweetness to the US in tastes and
texture- assume it's the trade making it possible.

Greece- Honey, honey, honey- that is their sweetner for just about
EVERYTHING- good but no variety really.

Germany- well when you have to endure a bone chilling weather you're
either gonna be a drunk or eat pleasurably. Their sweets are to die for.
They use real cream, real butter, real good. Better than the US, or
anywhere, IME.


More than you wanted to know, but I am hungry and too lazy to feed myself,
so it's easier typing about it.

Michelle
Italy
"Ahhhh, doughnuts" Homer Simpson
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by The Real Bev
Around here the French bakeries and donut shops are all run by Asians.
Especially interesting because Asians generally don't like sweets very
much.
Which Asians are you referring to?
The Chinese sure seem to, both in Chinatown (Vancouver, British
Columbia, Canada) and in China (Wuhan, Hubei Province).
In Vancouver (British Columbia, Canada), there is an Indian
sweets company.
Maybe, it is historical availability affecting this. I did note
less sugar in some items than for the comparable item over here.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Arri London
2004-06-16 22:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
Yes, many if not most Indians speak English natively which Westerners don't
realize. They have to speak it, since there are so many varying dialects of
the Indian language across their country, that English is the only way to
can communicate amongst themselves.
Well, there's Hindi.
But that is a language associated with a specific ethnic group, so many
people choose not to speak it outside Hindi-speaking areas. English is
the language of foreigners, who were foreign to everyone in India.
English is just about always used when someone doesn't know which
language/dialect the other person normally uses. Don't think Hindi was
ever considered a national language.
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
But yes, they speak it very fast, and
along with the strong accent, they might as well be speaking in a foreign
language.
One accent they can't understand is Scottish, even English people have
a hard time understanding it. Even so, a friend of mine was in an
Indian resteraunt in Scotland, and asked if they had any Chinese food,
to which the Indian waiter replied in a thick Scottish accent 'Do I
look like a Chinaman?'....
LOL like the local Chinese takeaway I went to in London. All the staff
were Bengali.
Around here the French bakeries and donut shops are all run by Asians.
Especially interesting because Asians generally don't like sweets very
much.
--
Cheers,
Bev
Not so surprising. They may be Vietnamese and would have learnt to eat
French food and patisserie, if they were urban dwellers. A very nice
patisserie where I was staying in London last trip was run by Vietnamese
refugees. They also did Chinese takeaway.
Rod Speed
2004-06-16 22:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arri London
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
Yes, many if not most Indians speak English natively
That is just plain wrong on the most.
Post by Arri London
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
which Westerners don't realize. They have to
speak it, since there are so many varying dialects
of the Indian language across their country,
Most indians dont in fact communicate across their country at all.
Post by Arri London
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
that English is the only way to can
communicate amongst themselves.
That is just plain wrong too.
Post by Arri London
Post by The Real Bev
Well, there's Hindi.
But that is a language associated with a specific ethnic group, so
many people choose not to speak it outside Hindi-speaking areas.
Sure.
Post by Arri London
English is the language of foreigners, who were foreign to everyone
in India. English is just about always used when someone doesn't
know whichlanguage/dialect the other person normally uses.
Don't think Hindi was ever considered a national language.
Depends on how you define a national language. India
does in fact have both Hindi and English written into the
constitution as national languages for official communication.

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/l/li/list_of_national_languages_of_india.html
Post by Arri London
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Post by Nonymous
But yes, they speak it very fast, and along with the strong
accent, they might as well be speaking in a foreign language.
That is just plain wrong too with educated indians.
Post by Arri London
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
One accent they can't understand is Scottish,
More mindlessly superficial silly stuff.
Post by Arri London
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
even English people have a hard time understanding it.
Ditto.
Post by Arri London
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Arri London
Post by Pete C
Even so, a friend of mine was in an Indian resteraunt in Scotland,
and asked if they had any Chinese food, to which the Indian waiter
replied in a thick Scottish accent 'Do I look like a Chinaman?'....
LOL like the local Chinese takeaway I went
to in London. All the staff were Bengali.
Around here the French bakeries and donut shops are all run by Asians.
Especially interesting because Asians generally don't like sweets very much.
Auntie Em
2004-06-14 21:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin
Post by Auntie Em
If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of
work that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't
import them for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP
types don't have a clue about.
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.
I think you're out of touch with reality. Some of the worst, most
apathetic, and downright rude people I've ever dealt with in restaurants,
motels, and stores have been people from other countries (plus throw in the
language barrier).
Hmm, I guess the Chinese Restaurant in Woodward, Oklahoma and the tiny
little storefront Mexican Restaurant in Berryville, Arkansas, both of which
stayed open TWO FULL HOURS after closing time, solely for the purpose of
serving my husband and I dinner, were weird exceptions huh?

My experience is that people from other countries are very happy to be doing
anything and making money at it. Yes, some of the time there are language
and cultural barriers involved, but I have never been treated RUDELY OR
APATHETICALLY by any of them. They are usually more than happy to do
whatever it takes to make the customer happy.

As far as the customer service people in India are concerned, I cannot
imagine how hard it must be for them to try to provide customer service to
people 10,000 miles away, for a product they have never seen and probably
never used with "corporate guidelines" (that are undoubtedly ignorant and
inefficient and bullshit), set forth by Dell or Gateway, or whomever. They
are probably doing the absolute best job they can possible do under ungodly
conditions. And can you imagine the idiots that they must deal with?
Please, anybody in customer service will tell you it ain't an easy job.

Em
Rod Speed
2004-06-14 22:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
As far as the customer service people in India are concerned,
I cannot imagine how hard it must be for them to try to provide
customer service to people 10,000 miles away,
Cant see why the distance should make any difference.
Post by Auntie Em
for a product they have never seen and probably never used
Yes, that could well be the main problem.

And the fact that they are unlikely to be individuals that do a
lot of that sort of thing before they end up in the call center.
Post by Auntie Em
with "corporate guidelines" (that are undoubtedly ignorant and
inefficient and bullshit), set forth by Dell or Gateway, or whomever.
Or maybe they are the only viable approach quite a bit of the time.
Post by Auntie Em
They are probably doing the absolute best job they can possible do
That may well not be good enough tho.
Post by Auntie Em
under ungodly conditions.
The conditions are actually pretty decent.
Post by Auntie Em
And can you imagine the idiots that they must deal with?
Sure, but thats a problem with any call center and you
shouldnt see any difference with the ones in india on that.
Post by Auntie Em
Please, anybody in customer service will tell you it ain't an easy job.
Sure, and the main problem with call centers in first
world countrys is that only the dregs of the employment
market are going to end up as a call center monkey.
Anyone with a clue would have a much better job.

The problem with the indian monkeys is that they arent usually
very familiar with the technology they are attempting assist with.

No big deal if its something routine like getting your personal
details etc when signing you up for something, but much more
of a problem if they are attempting to work out what part to
send you when your Dell has died etc and working out over
the phone if its just user stupidity or what.

All call centers have a problem handling the more difficult stuff.
My ISP just started blocking the SMTP port by default when
that is used outside their system. That means that you cant
post emails to an email server that isnt the ISP's email server.
You can reverse that default blocking online, but that didnt
actually make any difference when you did. The call center
monkey had a look from their end, maintained that since they
could telnet to my router that its wasnt being blocked by their
system. Couldnt explain why SMTP to an email server external
to their system stopped working when they changed the default
on port blocking with SMTP. Just went into brainless mode, denying
that it could be any problem at their end, with their port blocking.

Problem fixed itself a week or so later, presumably after enough had
complained and someone with a clue realised that they did have a problem.

That sort of thing will always be a problem with a call
center that employs third world monkeys when even the
first world call centers dont work very well with that stuff.
Justin
2004-06-14 23:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
Hmm, I guess the Chinese Restaurant in Woodward, Oklahoma and the tiny
little storefront Mexican Restaurant in Berryville, Arkansas, both of
which stayed open TWO FULL HOURS after closing time, solely for the
purpose of serving my husband and I dinner, were weird exceptions huh?
What's with all these broad generalizations being thrown around, good and
bad, about domestic and foreign workers based on a few experiences? Just
because a couple of restaurants stayed open late for you doesn't mean ALL
foreign born workers are exceptional. Just as a couple of bad experiences
with foreign born workers doesn't mean they're all bad.

Bigger question is: why were you at these places 2 hours after closing?
You got in the door before closing and it took 2 hours to get your food and
for you to eat? sheesh. I would have eaten quickly, so these poor folks
could get home to their families if I were you. Or better yet, I usually
don't even go into restaurants that are closed or about to be.



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
dogsnus
2004-06-15 11:52:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin
What's with all these broad generalizations being thrown around, good
and bad, about domestic and foreign workers based on a few experiences?
Makes for more interesting reading than posting about facts?


Terri
Scopophobic
2004-06-15 01:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin
I think you're out of touch with reality. Some of the worst, most
apathetic, and downright rude people I've ever dealt with in restaurants,
motels, and stores have been people from other countries (plus throw in the
language barrier). You think jobs are going to India for their wonderful
customer service?!? It's the miniscule wages, the co's can pay these
folks.
Armenians
Bobby The D
2004-06-14 18:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of work
that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't import them
for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP types don't have a
clue about.
Yeah right.
Post by Auntie Em
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.
Including yourself?
Bill Wilson
2004-06-14 21:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working class"
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
That's because most of them aren't from there. Many have come from
California and have drove the real estate prices well above what the
"working class" can afford. I used to live in Durango, in the mid eighties,
and it was starting to get bad then. But there were and still are some good
folks there.
baron48
2004-06-15 05:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working
class"
Post by Auntie Em
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
That's because most of them aren't from there. Many have come from
California and have drove the real estate prices well above what the
"working class" can afford. I used to live in Durango, in the mid eighties,
and it was starting to get bad then. But there were and still are some good
folks there.
I think it is obvious someone has an axe to grind. I've lived
in lived in 8 states plus a couple of other countries and found
that people are pretty much the same where ever you go. The
people who complain are usually the "rude and apathetic" individuals
who would blame a whole community for their own personal shortcomings.

-Tom
dogsnus
2004-06-15 11:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by baron48
I think it is obvious someone has an axe to grind. I've lived
in lived in 8 states plus a couple of other countries and found
that people are pretty much the same where ever you go. The
people who complain are usually the "rude and apathetic" individuals
who would blame a whole community for their own personal shortcomings.
Yup.I've lived in 6 states and people are_ pretty much the same.
The statements made by this person are myopic,and she/he is painfully un-
informed about economics.


Terri
Chloe
2004-06-15 12:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by baron48
Post by Auntie Em
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working
class"
Post by Auntie Em
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
That's because most of them aren't from there. Many have come from
California and have drove the real estate prices well above what the
"working class" can afford. I used to live in Durango, in the mid eighties,
and it was starting to get bad then. But there were and still are some good
folks there.
I think it is obvious someone has an axe to grind. I've lived
in lived in 8 states plus a couple of other countries and found
that people are pretty much the same where ever you go. The
people who complain are usually the "rude and apathetic" individuals
who would blame a whole community for their own personal shortcomings.
I've disagreed with you in the past, but on this I couldn't agree more.
Granted, within this country there are still some regional differences in
how people tend to interact socially, but anyone with half a grain of common
sense recognizes and adjusts to those pretty quickly.

It's amazing how in general people tend to live up or live down to our own
expectations.
Gary
2004-06-16 11:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auntie Em
Having spend a great deal of time in Durango, Colorado, I cannot speak for
those in Colorado springs. However, I can tell you that the "working class"
people who live in Durango have got to be the most rude, incompetent and
apathetic individuals I have ever had the sorry misfortune of coming into
contact with.
If the Coloradoians who live in CS are even close, they get what they
deserve IMHO. People in India CARE - REALLY CARE about the quality of work
that they produce. More power to them, I say. Pity we can't import them
for food service, housekeeping and other jobs that WASP types don't have a
clue about.
America's inept and incompetent job performances are catching up with them.
Em
And I thought the companies were moving the workforce overseas
because of money. Maybe if we all take nice people training, all the
overseas jobs will come back to the US and things will be much better.
Hey Em, if you beleive this then I have land to sell you seven miles
north of Downtown Cleveland. IMHO
dogsnus
2004-06-16 12:43:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
And I thought the companies were moving the workforce overseas
because of money.
Ayup.Business=higher profit margins is what it's all about.


Maybe if we all take nice people training, all the
Post by Gary
overseas jobs will come back to the US and things will be much better.
Well,if you're going to do *that*,then I want to be retrained as an
undertaker.That way,if this ever happens again,my job can't be
outsourced.
Post by Gary
Hey Em, if you beleive this then I have land to sell you seven miles
north of Downtown Cleveland. IMHO
The heck you say! I've got some ocean front property in Arizona
I've been trying to unload for 30 years.I think I've finally found
a suck...um,er...buyer.

Terri
Arri London
2004-06-16 22:13:36 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
And I thought the companies were moving the workforce overseas
because of money. Maybe if we all take nice people training, all the
overseas jobs will come back to the US and things will be much better.
Hey Em, if you beleive this then I have land to sell you seven miles
north of Downtown Cleveland. IMHO
But there is plenty of land north of Cleveland! It just has a little bit
of a drainage problem most of the year. Quite solid the entire winter
though......
one of the Pepsi Genration
2004-06-14 04:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by nina
In a city of squalor, technology has constructed an empire
SQUEEZED INTO A TAXI HURTLING along Hosur Road, it's easy for visitors to
forget they are in Bangalore, India's Silicon Valley, and America's back
office.
Indians need to work and buy food to eat too.
Dan Birchall
2004-06-14 05:00:03 UTC
Permalink
It happens. MY old job moved across the ocean, too... TO Colorado. :)
--
Dan Birchall, Hilo HI - http://dan.birchalls.net/ - images, words, technology
Auntie Em
2004-06-14 10:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Birchall
It happens. MY old job moved across the ocean, too... TO Colorado. :)
They'll be sorry they did.

Em
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