Discussion:
Storing enough food/water for a year
(too old to reply)
j***@comcast.net
2003-08-25 19:56:49 UTC
Permalink
"Hi all"

I'm wondering if anyone stores food/water for long periods of time.

If you do, do you have any hints on keeping out bugs, keeping
inventory, and such? How you got started? What you would start with?

Thank you,

Susan
t***@sbcglobal.net
2003-08-26 01:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@comcast.net
"Hi all"
I'm wondering if anyone stores food/water for long periods of time.
If you do, do you have any hints on keeping out bugs, keeping
inventory, and such? How you got started? What you would start with?
I vaguely recall that some folks collect their household water from the rain
from the roof and collect it in a big tank . . . I'd think you could do
something like this too, just fill a 5000 gallon plastic tank (or two or
three) with water from the garden hose, and you'll have your water. For
food, I'd try dry stuff like rice and beans, and canned what-not, and figure
out some sort of FIFO inventory method, use the old stuff and replace it
with new.
--Tock
family
2003-08-26 02:24:23 UTC
Permalink
i have heard the thing about the bleach in the water b4 but i thought it was
dangerous to consume bleachno matter the quanity?
y.b.
Post by j***@comcast.net
"Hi all"
I'm wondering if anyone stores food/water for long periods of time.
If you do, do you have any hints on keeping out bugs, keeping
inventory, and such? How you got started? What you would start with?
See: http://www.waltonfeed.com/self/index.html for lots of
good info on storing food and water.
We store water because our water comes from a well, and is
pumped by electricity and the power goes off frequently
here.
We store water in 6-gallon jerricans I bought at a K-Mart -
sporting goods stores also have them, they're meant for
camping. We keep six of these on hand. This isn't enough
for long-term use, but it's enough for our average power
failure - and more. (We have a 1.6 gallon per flush
toilet.)
We put 1 teaspoon of ordinary Clorox-type bleach in each
6-gallon container, then fill it with water. We drain the
water and put new water in the jerricans about every six
months.
For food, the best possible advice is: Eat what you store
and store what you eat!
Start off by buying canned food that you already eat -
fruits, tuna (if you like it), baked beans, other canned
food you already eat. Rotate your storage: eat the oldest
first, then replace them.
If you already cook and eat dried beans, store them too. If
you eat rice, you can store it. White rice keeps a long,
long time.
If you are already accustomed to grinding your own wheat and
making bread from the flour, then it would be good to store
wheat. If you have no idea what to do with wheat kernels,
then it isn't a good idea for you to store wheat.
If you use dried skim milk powder, then it's good to store
it. If you never use it, don't store it.
Remember: store what you eat, and eat what you store!
HTH,
Pat
Mike
2003-08-26 06:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by family
i have heard the thing about the bleach in the water b4 but i thought it was
dangerous to consume bleachno matter the quanity?
y.b.
You drink bleach everyday.

Its a standard purifier used by treatment plants.

Get the right kind of bleach, no additives or perfumes and the right strength.

Mike
Christopher Green
2003-08-26 07:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by family
i have heard the thing about the bleach in the water b4 but i thought it was
dangerous to consume bleachno matter the quanity?
y.b.
1 tsp of 6% Clorox in 6 gals. is about 6 ppm chlorine. 2 ppm is the
minimum for controlling Pseudomonas aeruginosa. 4 ppm is the EPA limit
for residual chlorine. So it's not excessive by much. The pathogens
that that concentration of chlorine will kill are a lot more dangerous
than the chlorine.

There are better disinfectants, but nothing so easily within the means
of a householder who wants to store a large quantity of drinking
water.
--
Chris Green
Pat Meadows
2003-08-26 16:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by family
i have heard the thing about the bleach in the water b4 but i thought it was
dangerous to consume bleachno matter the quanity?
I typed that wrong: 1/2 teaspoon bleach to a 6-gallon
container of water. Sorry.

I don't think that amount of bleach is dangerous.

But don't take *my* word for it - read what the experts have
to say...

Below is what the Red Cross has to say about it (URLs are
below the quotation). Their booklet is entitled "Food and
Water in an Emergency" and it is VERY useful, especially for
beginners, IMHO, and you can download and print it for free.

This booklet was developed by the Federal Emergency
Management Agency in cooperation with the American Red Cross
and the U.S. Department of Agriculture. This advice is as
'official' as you are going to find anywhere. And it's not
trying to sell you anything!

---------------------------
BOILING
Boiling is the safest method of purifying water. Bring water
to a rolling boil for 3-5 minutes, keeping in mind that some
water will evaporate. Let the water cool before drinking.
Boiled water will taste better if you put oxygen back
into it by pouring the water back and forth between two
clean containers. This will also improve the taste of
stored water.

DISINFECTION

You can use household liquid bleach to kill microorganisms.
Use only regular household liquid bleach that contains 5.25
percent sodium hypochlorite. Do not use scented bleaches,
colorsafe bleaches or bleaches with added cleaners.
Add 16 drops of bleach per gallon of water, stir and let
stand for 30 minutes. If the water does not have a slight
bleach odor, repeat the dosage and let stand another 15
minutes.

The only agent used to purify water should be household
liquid bleach. Other chemicals, such as iodine or water
treatment products sold in camping or surplus stores that do
not contain 5.25 percent sodium hypochlorite as the only
active ingredient, are not recommended and should not be
used.

----------------------------

From: http://www.redcross.org/disaster/safety/Foodwtr.pdf

Also see: http://www.ready.gov/water_food.html for FEMA's
endorsement of the Red Cross booklet above.

You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader on your PC to read or
print this booklet. Acrobat Reader is free, and you can
obtain it at:
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readermain.html

A whole lot of useful information on the Web is in the form
of Adobe Acrobat files - you can identify them because they
end with .pdf - so it's good to have the reader on your PC.

Pat
Clete
2003-08-26 03:13:19 UTC
Permalink
I get depressed to think I won't have anything green and alive to eat...like
sprouts...Which will be easy to make if you store such seeds....

One might live on rice and other long stored foods, but to thrive, one needs
fresh foods...If not for anything more than the the psychological boost they
would provide...

Clete..






Frank White wrote in message ...
Post by j***@comcast.net
"Hi all"
I'm wondering if anyone stores food/water for long periods of time.
If you do, do you have any hints on keeping out bugs, keeping
inventory, and such? How you got started? What you would start with?
Thank you,
Susan
I'm going to cross-post this to misc.survivalism; this is meat
and drink over there.
Anyway, yes. Survivalists, Mormons, and extremely frugal
and/or cautious people store food/water. Canned goods,
bulk grains, dried/dehydrated foodstuffs, MREs: There's lots
of stuff you can store easily that will keep for a year or
longer. Start by considering what you already eat, and buy
the non-perishable portions (rice, for instance, or canned
fruits and vegetables) in bulk. Store in Tupperware, steel
or tin containers, or food quality plastic buckets. Keep
an inventory of what you've bought, and label the cans and
bags with adhesive labels on which you write the date of
purchase so you know how long something has been in storage,
and can rotate out and eat (hence the need to buy what you're
already fond of eating) older supplies. As for water, it
can be stored in tough, closeable plastic (pop bottles are
excellent) with either a few drops of bleach in to prevent
bacterial growth, or frozen, which will accomplish the same
thing.
Hope this helps.
FW
Sewmaster
2003-08-26 11:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clete
I get depressed to think I won't have anything green and alive to eat...like
sprouts...Which will be easy to make if you store such seeds....
One might live on rice and other long stored foods, but to thrive, one needs
fresh foods...If not for anything more than the the psychological boost they
would provide...
Clete..
I have seeds in our storage specifically for this purpose.

Sewmaster, who had food storage for 2 years, we ate up
over one years' worth & now are eating the rest.
I need to replace this when I can.
fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com (Frank White)
2003-08-26 13:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clete
I get depressed to think I won't have anything green and alive to eat...like
sprouts...Which will be easy to make if you store such seeds....
Sprouts are good. They're easy and quick to grow, you can use them
as salad greens or dump a handful in soups and stews, full of
vitamins, etc.

You can also grow lettuce in hot frames and vegetables like
asparagus or zuchinni in pots. As long as you've got water,
soil, light, and seeds you can grow your own, in time.
Post by Clete
One might live on rice and other long stored foods, but to thrive, one needs
fresh foods...If not for anything more than the the psychological boost they
would provide...
The question is of course how long to be planning to be eating
out of your supplies, and why. The Federal Emergency Management
Agency and the Red Cross recommend having at least 72 hours worth
of food, water (1 gallon per person for day; half for drinking,
half for food preparation/sanitation), and necessary supplies.
That way, if disaster happens and power, water, and access to
grocery stores are cut off, you'll be able to get by for the
three days (on average) it takes for essential services to be
restored.

Many people suggest a week or two worth of supplies is better,
mainly because three days may be too optimistic in some disasters
(major earthquakes, for instance, can trash things so badly they
have to be rebuilt from the ground up. And in snowstorms or
floods, you have to wait until the weather gets better before
repairs can start, and that may days). You can also use the
extra food in normal times if unexpected company drops in and
you don't have enough on hand to feed them.

And then there's the worry about TEOTWAWKI. The End Of The World
As We Know It, an event so tramatic that EVERYTHING crashes, and
rebuilding can take months, if not years. Nuclear war was the
prime example of a TEOTWAWKI event, although Y2K, if it had gone
as feared, would have qualified too. These days, there are other
possibilities (bio-attack, economic meltdown, super computer
virus) that lead many to want to have enough supplies to last
out anything that might come. INCLUDING the possibility of
unemployment. Getting a pink slip is traumatic, but knowing that,
no matter what, you'll have enough to eat for at least a year
can be some solace.

FW
Rex Tincher
2003-08-26 15:28:58 UTC
Permalink
On 26 Aug 2003 13:58:43 GMT, fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com (Frank White)
wrote:
<snip>
Post by fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com (Frank White)
Getting a pink slip is traumatic, but knowing that,
no matter what, you'll have enough to eat for at least a year
can be some solace.
Been there, done that. A fat bank account is even more solace than
stored supplies after being laid off, although unemployment is an
ideal time to use up anything that is close to its expiration date.

My website links to some survival resources for both beginners and
experts. The folks in misc.consumers.frugal-living may be especially
interested in the link to Countryside Magazine.
http://www.tincher.to/survival.htm
--
"I can't describe how I felt when I picked up that rifle, loaded
it into my little car and drove home. It seemed so incredibly
strange: Sarah Brady, of all people, packing heat."
- Sarah Brady, explaining how her son avoided the Brady criminal
background check by getting her to buy the sniper rifle for him.
Source: New York Daily News, Mar. 21, 2002, "Gun control advocate
may have violated gun laws"
A.T. Hagan
2003-08-27 15:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Tincher
<snip>
Post by fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com (Frank White)
Getting a pink slip is traumatic, but knowing that,
no matter what, you'll have enough to eat for at least a year
can be some solace.
Been there, done that. A fat bank account is even more solace than
stored supplies after being laid off, although unemployment is an
ideal time to use up anything that is close to its expiration date.
A fat bank account AND a food storage program is best of all.

A good food storage program can be put together for not all that much
money mostly from your local grocery store.

The fat bank account is another thing entirely. Food storage won't
affect it much either way.

.....Alan.
Pat Meadows
2003-08-26 16:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by fwhite*NOSPAM*@colfax.com (Frank White)
Many people suggest a week or two worth of supplies is better,
mainly because three days may be too optimistic in some disasters
(major earthquakes, for instance, can trash things so badly they
have to be rebuilt from the ground up. And in snowstorms or
floods, you have to wait until the weather gets better before
repairs can start, and that may days). You can also use the
extra food in normal times if unexpected company drops in and
you don't have enough on hand to feed them.
We had a small, minor, regional ice storm last New Year's
Day in our area of rural northern Pennsylvania. Our
electricity was off for 18 hours. Other people weren't so
lucky: many people in the area had no electricity for three
long, cold weeks in January.

If it had been a *major* ice storm, I can easily believe
that no supplies of food would have reached this area for
several weeks.

And the two local supermarkets have almost nothing in stock
- what you see on the shelves is just about all there is. I
know this because I have looked in their 'back rooms'
(storage area). I think all supermarkets operate this way
nowadays. I don't know if the supermarkets would even open
if they had no power.

Pat
Lurker Steve
2003-08-31 21:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Meadows
And the two local supermarkets have almost nothing in stock
- what you see on the shelves is just about all there is. I
know this because I have looked in their 'back rooms'
(storage area). I think all supermarkets operate this way
nowadays. I don't know if the supermarkets would even open
if they had no power.
I grew up in hurricane country, and whenever one was on the way to possibly
hitting our area, the grocery stores would find themselves cleaned out of
milk and bread. The stores themselves were packed, and you'd see a lot of
bare shelves, but those were the two items that went first.

Hurricanes in that part of the country were both rare and mild, so I always
wondered what kind of person didn't have enough food for at least a few days
lying around the house?
charles krin
2003-09-30 17:11:44 UTC
Permalink
It was the same thing in the South whenever there was a snow warning.
It was the worst in Georgia, where we never had more snow than a couple
of inches (we had 4 inches once and they called it "the storm of the
century"). I think it's more psychological than necessity - for some
reason, whenever there was a snow warning, everyone thought they were
living on "Little House on the Prairie" and might be snowed in until
spring. Even people who had plenty of food at home.
That sounds like January of 1987...I was en route from Ft Benning GA
to Detroit for an interview...and then on to Kansas City for another
rotation...

6 inches of white fluffy stuff in Atlanta...got the last room at the
motel on the north side, and woke up to pristine white....while there
were 18 wheelers rolling on the Interstate, not much else was.

ck
A.T. Hagan
2003-08-26 16:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@comcast.net
"Hi all"
I'm wondering if anyone stores food/water for long periods of time.
If you do, do you have any hints on keeping out bugs, keeping
inventory, and such? How you got started? What you would start with?
Thank you,
Susan
I'm going to cross-post this to misc.survivalism; this is meat
and drink over there.
It's getting a bit dated now but you can still find my Food Storage
FAQ on the Walton Feed site at:

http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs/

While you're there take a look at the reams of other good food storage
info that Al Durtschi has on that site.

A few brief notes to get you started:

Don't try to store an entire year's worth of food all at once if
you're a newcomer to the idea. Start with a complete two weeks. Then
go to a month. Then three months, six months, then a year. Any
mistakes you make on the way will be smaller in scale and easier to
correct.

Don't store foods that you or your family does not presently eat. If
you want to store a give type of food learn to eat it NOW then store
it later once you all have decided you like it well enough to eat it
on at least a semi-regular basis. The short form of this is 'eat what
you store and store what you eat.'

Don't buy a lot of anything to put into storage before you've eaten at
least one can or package of that food first. This is somewhat
different from the above paragraph in that even if you happen to like
Spam, don't buy a bunch of a store brand of Spam until you've eaten at
least one can. Brands and manufacturers can vary considerably in
flavor and texture.

Don't let your food just sit there and get old. Rotate out the oldest
stuff and replace it with newer stock. Exactly how long any given
food should be stored before rotating it out is subject to
considerable variables. I try to address these in the Food Storage
FAQ, but sometimes only experience will tell you what you need to
know.

Don't forget that while food is important, clean safe water is VITAL.
If you haven't gotten a handle on that, don't bother with storing
food. Someone out there should still have a copy of Patton Turner's
Water FAQ. It's getting old too, but still an excellent primer on the
subject. A Google search will probably turn it up.

Lastly, don't be afraid to make mistakes. No one gets it right the
first time (or second, third, fourth). I've been doing this for over
twenty years and my food storage is still undergoing evolution and
likely always will. Circumstances and tastes change. Let them.

.....Alan.
MerryStahel
2003-08-27 15:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Bob,

I read you account with great interest.

Although not on the level of your stocking and storing, DH and I have always
had an emergency cupboard. It started because the first place he was stationed
to in the military had a massive mudslide that closed the main highway in for 2
years, and then an earthquake that blocked the other highway for a year. Back
roads had to be taken into this section of Northern California and food was
basicalyl air-lifted in. Lettuce was $5 a head.

The Navy got together with a small Air Force base up nroth by the border of CA,
and they opened a commisary 80 miles away for us unfortunates who could barely
afford to eat at the food prices out in town.

The Navy ran a bus up there once a week, so the spouses could shop. Myself and
another wife got together and took our own car, and stocked up for months.

I became a once a month shopper after that, and as time passed, and each place
we lived seemed to have some sort of natural disaster, we just kept the
emergency cupboard going. (Flood, typhoons, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.).

I now shop every 6 weeks, and we too, stock up at case lot sales.

And in our house full of women, we have a saying.

"Never pass up a chance to buy toilet paper."

Merry <G>


Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once
http://www.stardancerpress.com/MerryStahel/
http://community.webshots.com/user/merrystahel
Sewmaster
2003-08-27 16:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@comcast.net
I'm wondering if anyone stores food/water for long periods of time.
If you do, do you have any hints on keeping out bugs, keeping
inventory, and such? How you got started? What you would start with?
Thank you,
Susan
As Frank White mentioned, numerous people do keep a supply of food and
water on hand for many different reasons.
In the case of my wife and I, it started out as a gradual thing.
<snipped long and wonderful post, which I've saved>

Thank you for this post. Felt very validating to read.
You & your wife are a lot like me, :-) in the food management
dept at least.

This very long period of unemployment has been made much more
bearable by our food storage. We stored enough for 2 years,
it's getting down there & I'm getting nervous, but it has helped
enormously in stretching our savings. We're still not in
any debt & are extremely self-disciplined in not spending
for *anything* not necessary.

As for Susan, if you will go to an LDS bookstore, they have
lots of books with all the info you will need.
Look on the net, do a search for "Mormon bookstores."

Sewmaster
Rex Tincher
2003-08-27 20:03:50 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:31:52 -0500, Bob G <***@pclink.com> wrote:

<snip excellent description of preparations and how they came in handy
during blizzard>
Even bar soap, dish soap, etc is kept on hand in large quantity.
Waterless hand cleaner (also called "hand sanitizer" is good to have
too. Sometimes water is too precious to waste it on washing hands, or
you may have water shutoff to the whole house so that you can fix the
plumbing. Right now every toilet and faucet (except two) in my house
has a water shutoff valve that *works* so that I can fix those items
without turninng off water to the whole house. The only exceptions
are the bathtub faucets and those will get shutoff valves when the
bathrooms are redone.
At any particular time we can go from 3 months to 6 months without
shopping and have everything we normally use. Except fresh fruit and
veggies.
The two most overlooked items are drinking water (at least 1 gallon
per person per day) and toilet paper. You will use twice as much of
both if you are in your house all day instead of going to work. Water
stores well in those 7 gallon containers from Reliance that are
available from South Summit ( http://www.southsummit.com/ ) and other
places. 55 gallon drums are cheaper but then you need a pump (also
from South Summit) to get the water out. And the Reliance containers
are easier to store and move than the 55 gallon drums, which weigh
more than 300 pounds each when filled. Fortunately chlorinated city
water keeps for months.

<snip>
All the things in the "emergency" stock are things we do normally eat.
And is dated and rotated as we use up some and buy new.
<snip>

Yes, it's important to use stuff up before it goes bad. Otherwise you
get a nasty surprise when you really need it.
--
"You can't tell the kids to stop the violence with the mothers running
around like this."
--- Mary Ann Smith, after her son was shot by a Million Mom Marcher
More details at: http://www.tincher.to/mmm.htm
Tim May
2003-08-27 21:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Tincher
<snip excellent description of preparations and how they came in handy
during blizzard>
Even bar soap, dish soap, etc is kept on hand in large quantity.
Waterless hand cleaner (also called "hand sanitizer" is good to have
too. Sometimes water is too precious to waste it on washing hands, or
you may have water shutoff to the whole house so that you can fix the
plumbing.
I stocked up the alcohol-based hand sanitizer stuff when the prices
dropped in the past couple of years. Preferable to washing with soap in
many cases...very common now in hospitals.
Post by Rex Tincher
The two most overlooked items are drinking water (at least 1 gallon
per person per day) and toilet paper. You will use twice as much of
both if you are in your house all day instead of going to work. Water
stores well in those 7 gallon containers from Reliance that are
available from South Summit ( http://www.southsummit.com/ ) and other
places. 55 gallon drums are cheaper but then you need a pump (also
from South Summit) to get the water out.
What's wrong with using a simple length of tubing as a syphon? It works
for me.
Post by Rex Tincher
And the Reliance containers
are easier to store and move than the 55 gallon drums, which weigh
more than 300 pounds each when filled. Fortunately chlorinated city
water keeps for months.
I have six 55-gallon drums--the plastic ones that fruit juices and
olives and such are shipped in--I set up next to my house in 1999.

I also got a collapsible water bag from www.watertanks.com (no idea if
it's still around) called "The Bag." Holds 200 gallons. Sort of like a
water bed mattress, except less expensive, for obvious reasons. And I
got several collapsible 25-gallon bags.

Probably the best tip I ever saw on water storage was someone's tip
that children's inflatable swimming pools are very, very inexpensive.
My local Target or K-Mart was selling 400-gallon inflatables for $8 or
somesuch trivial price (end of season, about now). I bought a few of
them and stuck them on shelves.

The idea for their use is that if a disaster hits, one which has not
yet cut off the water but which is _expected_ to in a few days or
weeks, then one sets up the inflatables in the back yard and fills them
as quickly as possible. Voila, several hundred gallons for flushing,
for later boiling or treatment or filtering.

(I have a Katadyn ceramic filter, the one that the U.N uses, the one
that allows the user to essentially drink out of any mud puddle.
Doesn't handle viruses or giardia, though.)

And if any kind of emergency happens, fill all available bathtubs.

Note: A surprising number of disasters we can imagine will not result
in water being shut off instantaneously. Even earthquakes may not,
depending on the connection between a reservoir and one's home (or the
local storage tank). Nuclear war may, though fallout alone won't.

In the likeliest widespread disasters, water and electricity may exist
for days or even weeks after the first signs of the disaster. For
example, riots, martial law, pandemics, disruption of major cities by
terrorism, etc.

Hence the idea of having things like children's wading pools and lots
of tubs to fill up with water as quickly as possible...for when the
water taps _do_ run dry.

Naturally, one also wants to have water supplies which are usable if
water and electricity go out suddenly. But this doesn't mean having all
water bags and pools filled at all times.


--Tim May
Tim May
2003-08-28 04:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
(I have a Katadyn ceramic filter, the one that the U.N uses, the one
that allows the user to essentially drink out of any mud puddle.
Doesn't handle viruses or giardia, though.)
That Katadyn Pocket filter is top of the line equipment. For a
portable extended use filter that is field serviceable... The best I
know of...
Yes, I had wanted one of these for years, but the prices were very
high. Then, several years ago, I saw a good price at some Web store
that had apparently overstocked and I ordered one.

I can't see I have used it very much, just enough to familiarize myself
with its use, but its nice knowing I have it an emergency pack. Having
the Katadyn in my non-desert part of the world means I'll never, ever
not have something to drink.
For one who is wandering around in wilderness areas in the US, a good
filter gets the job done. Most of the really bad viruses that are
common in third world countries are not a threat in the US. Though
this could change in a major disaster event that has lots of unburied
dead bodies lying around or untreated sewage on the streets.
Fortunately, I cannot see any situation where I will be
"downstream" of these dead bottom feeders.

(I have some halazone-type tablets and the fuel and stove to boil
water, so if push comes to shove I guess I could even drink the water
downhill from where the ghetto boys are piling up.)

Seeing what millions of Iraqis are drinking, with only a small fraction
of them getting sick from the water, I suspect no conceivable calamity
on American soil could match this, at least not for most people.


--Tim May
Robert F Wieland
2003-08-28 13:42:05 UTC
Permalink
[big snip]
And the Reliance containers are easier to store and move than the 55
gallon drums, which weigh more than 300 pounds each when filled.
Are you sure about this number? 55 US Gallons of water should weigh
450-something pounds, then add the weight of the container.

(Yes, I know that 450 is "more than 300", which is exactly what you said,
but if the idea is to give the readers an idea of what the actual weight
is...)
--
R F Wieland Newark, DE 19711-5323 USA 39.68N 75.74W
Icom R75 Heathkit GR-81 Inverted-L in the attic
Reply to wieland at me dot udel dot edu
Rex Tincher
2003-08-28 15:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert F Wieland
[big snip]
And the Reliance containers are easier to store and move than the 55
gallon drums, which weigh more than 300 pounds each when filled.
Are you sure about this number? 55 US Gallons of water should weigh
450-something pounds, then add the weight of the container.
(Yes, I know that 450 is "more than 300", which is exactly what you said,
but if the idea is to give the readers an idea of what the actual weight
is...)
You are correct. Water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon. In my case it
makes no difference whether the barrels weigh 300 or 450 pounds. Once
they are full I ain't moving them!
--
Emergency preparedness and survival information:
http://www.tincher.to/
Stormin Mormon
2003-08-29 18:39:40 UTC
Permalink
A galon of fresh water weighs 8.35 pounds
A square foot of water holds 7.48 galons, and weighs 62.5 pounds
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.org
.
.
[big snip]
And the Reliance containers are easier to store and move than the 55
gallon drums, which weigh more than 300 pounds each when filled.
Are you sure about this number? 55 US Gallons of water should weigh
450-something pounds, then add the weight of the container.

(Yes, I know that 450 is "more than 300", which is exactly what you said,
but if the idea is to give the readers an idea of what the actual weight
is...)
--
R F Wieland Newark, DE 19711-5323 USA 39.68N 75.74W
Icom R75 Heathkit GR-81 Inverted-L in the attic
Reply to wieland at me dot udel dot edu
j***@yahoo.com
2003-08-28 13:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
Naturally, one also wants to have water supplies which are usable if
water and electricity go out suddenly. But this doesn't mean having all
water bags and pools filled at all times.
What abt just buying several cases of pre-bottled water
like you can at Walmart?
Tim May
2003-08-28 16:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by Tim May
Naturally, one also wants to have water supplies which are usable if
water and electricity go out suddenly. But this doesn't mean having all
water bags and pools filled at all times.
What abt just buying several cases of pre-bottled water
like you can at Walmart?
Nothing, except the cost, for the relatively small amount of water that
entails.

I was talking about approaches for storing several hundred gallons.


--Tim May
Myal
2003-08-29 03:47:12 UTC
Permalink
It's not very much water to store in one sense, but it gets
us through our typical power failures (we have a 1.6 gallon
per flush toilet and that helps). We keep the jerricans
filled with water at all times, changing it about every six
months. We have a well and the power goes off frequently
here. No electricity = no water.
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping water for
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills stayed .
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Pat Meadows
2003-08-29 12:53:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:47:12 +1000, "Myal"
Post by Myal
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping water for
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills stayed .
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Yes, a windmill would be impractical in our current
location, which is quite sheltered.

Pat
Dan
2003-08-29 23:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Myal
It's not very much water to store in one sense, but it gets
us through our typical power failures (we have a 1.6 gallon
per flush toilet and that helps). We keep the jerricans
filled with water at all times, changing it about every six
months. We have a well and the power goes off frequently
here. No electricity = no water.
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping water for
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills stayed .
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Windmills are for immediately subsurface water, which was plentiful before
powered pumps lowered water tables. Could still work, depending on
the source of your aquifer.

Dan
Myal
2003-08-30 07:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
It's not very much water to store in one sense, but it gets
us through our typical power failures (we have a 1.6 gallon
per flush toilet and that helps). We keep the jerricans
filled with water at all times, changing it about every six
months. We have a well and the power goes off frequently
here. No electricity = no water.
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping water
for
Post by Myal
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills stayed .
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Windmills are for immediately subsurface water, which was plentiful before
powered pumps lowered water tables. Could still work, depending on
the source of your aquifer.
Dan
The bores we had were 70 and 90 foot deep , I am not sure of your idea of
imeadiate sub surface water , how deep are you talking ?
Myal
( I posted this earlier , but the computer jammed up on me , apoligies if I
am doubling up )
A.T. Hagan
2003-08-30 19:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Myal
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
It's not very much water to store in one sense, but it gets
us through our typical power failures (we have a 1.6 gallon
per flush toilet and that helps). We keep the jerricans
filled with water at all times, changing it about every six
months. We have a well and the power goes off frequently
here. No electricity = no water.
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping water
for
Post by Myal
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills stayed
.
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Windmills are for immediately subsurface water, which was plentiful before
powered pumps lowered water tables. Could still work, depending on
the source of your aquifer.
Dan
The bores we had were 70 and 90 foot deep , I am not sure of your idea of
imeadiate sub surface water , how deep are you talking ?
Myal
( I posted this earlier , but the computer jammed up on me , apoligies if I
am doubling up )
A windmill and the proper type of deep well manual pump will easily
pump from that depth.

In fact, it would be better to use a windmill to pump it with than
doing it by hand.

.....Alan.
r***@yahoo.com
2003-08-30 22:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by A.T. Hagan
Post by Myal
The bores we had were 70 and 90 foot deep , I am not sure of your idea of
imeadiate sub surface water , how deep are you talking ?
Myal
( I posted this earlier , but the computer jammed up on me , apoligies if I
am doubling up )
A windmill and the proper type of deep well manual pump will easily
pump from that depth.
In fact, it would be better to use a windmill to pump it with than
doing it by hand.
.....Alan.
Might not be better, but it sure would be easier. :-)


Rick Bowen
TSRA Life Member
NRA Member

Without the 2nd Amendment,
the rest are just suggestions.
Dan
2003-09-01 01:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Myal
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
It's not very much water to store in one sense, but it gets
us through our typical power failures (we have a 1.6 gallon
per flush toilet and that helps). We keep the jerricans
filled with water at all times, changing it about every six
months. We have a well and the power goes off frequently
here. No electricity = no water.
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping water
for
Post by Myal
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills
stayed
Post by Myal
.
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Windmills are for immediately subsurface water, which was plentiful before
powered pumps lowered water tables. Could still work, depending on
the source of your aquifer.
Dan
The bores we had were 70 and 90 foot deep , I am not sure of your idea of
imeadiate sub surface water , how deep are you talking ?
Myal
In many (most?) areas, several hundred feet is the norm. In heavy
agricultural areas
using subsurface water, thousands of feet are not uncommon.

Dan
Myal
2003-09-01 06:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Myal
Post by Myal
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
It's not very much water to store in one sense, but it gets
us through our typical power failures (we have a 1.6 gallon
per flush toilet and that helps). We keep the jerricans
filled with water at all times, changing it about every six
months. We have a well and the power goes off frequently
here. No electricity = no water.
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping
water
Post by Myal
Post by Dan
for
Post by Myal
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills
stayed
Post by Myal
.
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Windmills are for immediately subsurface water, which was plentiful
before
Post by Myal
Post by Dan
powered pumps lowered water tables. Could still work, depending on
the source of your aquifer.
Dan
The bores we had were 70 and 90 foot deep , I am not sure of your idea of
imeadiate sub surface water , how deep are you talking ?
Myal
In many (most?) areas, several hundred feet is the norm. In heavy
agricultural areas
using subsurface water, thousands of feet are not uncommon.
Dan
Sounds sorta like artiesian bores , only they dont need pumping.

Myal
Bob G
2003-09-01 13:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Myal
Post by Myal
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping
water
Post by Myal
Post by Dan
for
Post by Myal
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills
stayed
Post by Myal
.
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Windmills are for immediately subsurface water, which was plentiful
before
Post by Myal
Post by Dan
powered pumps lowered water tables. Could still work, depending on
the source of your aquifer.
Dan
The bores we had were 70 and 90 foot deep , I am not sure of your idea of
imeadiate sub surface water , how deep are you talking ?
Myal
In many (most?) areas, several hundred feet is the norm. In heavy
agricultural areas
using subsurface water, thousands of feet are not uncommon.
Dan
Hmmmm. I would have phrased that "In SOME areas ...". Depends on
where yah live, of course. And the source of your info. Not all
sources are equally valid.

Your post sounded like it hinted at a bit more depth and effects (on
average across the country) upon the water tables of farm irrigation
than I'd expect from what I've seen. Having lived in a great many
different places.

So I did a check with the USDA. They do not collect the relavent data
on every state. But do occassionally run a survey of the following
states. The farmers themselves provide the data. Who would know
better? After all, it's their wells, they paid to have them dug.
There were about 100,000 respondents, reporting a bit over 300,000
irrigating wells on their properties.

The following are the AVERAGES. by state: First number is the average
to strike water. Second number is the average actual pumping depth
used.

Arizona.................................. 147..... 229
Arkansas............................... 49 ..... 82
California............................... 97 ..... 157
Colorado .............................. 66 ..... 107
Florida.................................. 73 ..... 128
Georgia ................................ 88 ..... 152
Idaho.................................... 126 ..... 181
Illinois................................... 29 ..... 62
Kansas................................. 111 ..... 173
Louisiana ............................. 49 ..... 83
Michigan .............................. 32 ..... 59
Minnesota ............................ 38 ..... 76
Mississippi ........................... 35 ..... 64
Missouri ................................ 19 ..... 47
Montana................................. 42 ..... 77
Nebraska ............................... 73 ..... 122
Nevada .................................. 90 ..... 160
New Mexico ..........................101 ..... 159
North Dakota......................... 29 ..... 55
Oklahoma ............................. 103 .....198
Oregon................................... 70 ..... 136
South Dakota......................... 39 ..... 78
Texas ....................................159 .....219
Utah ...................................... 72 .....122
Washington .......................... 87 .....151
Wisconsin............................. 38 ..... 82
Wyoming .............................. 70 ..... 120

Keep in mind a few things.

First you will note that the pump suctions are located below the
actual water table, point at which you strike water. A common
practice. i.e. Note the figures for Minnesota, where I live. On
average they strike the water table at 38 foot, but locate their pump
suction at 76 foot.

Why? Consider my own residential well suction is located well below
the normal water table. I simply don't feel like having to put in an
emergency call to a well driller during a dry.year. So my suction is
located at the original driller's best estimate of the "never fail"
level. As that fellow has spent a lifetime drilling wells in this
particular area (he's my age, mid 50's), I am pretty confident in his
advice.

Also note that the wells are often drilled even deeper than the
location of the pump suction. There are a number of reasons to do
this. Among others, to establish that you've hit the true water
table, as versus a shallow underground stream, how deep and reliable
of volume is the water source, to determine the soil structure above
and below the well pumping point, establish a silt collection pit,
etc. Reasons are multiple and varied according to area. But the
result is that, for instance, the average farm irrigation well in
Arizona is drilled to a depth of 422 foot, even tho the pump suction
is located at only about half that. Net result is that if you only
look at the figures of how deep the well is drilled, it can be
misleading as to where the normal water table is located. I left
those figures out for that very reason.

Also keep in mind the the figures represent data for farms requiring
irrigation wells and does not speak to how deep some homeowner may
have to dig in his area to find water. i.e. Here in Minnesota the vast
majority of farms are located in the southern part of the state, in
relatively well drainned areas. As compared to a lot of places in the
state where yah can strike water by driving a sharp stick in the
ground with a hammer.

Also, consider your comments alluding to the fact that agricultural
wells can considerable affect water table levels. True enough ...
they CAN. Depending on area and available water sources. But in many
areas there is a LOT of water. And such farm irrigation has from
little to no measureable effect.

Bob
r***@yahoo.com
2003-09-01 16:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob G
The following are the AVERAGES. by state: First number is the average
to strike water. Second number is the average actual pumping depth
used.
Arizona.................................. 147..... 229
Arkansas............................... 49 ..... 82
California............................... 97 ..... 157
Colorado .............................. 66 ..... 107
Florida.................................. 73 ..... 128
Georgia ................................ 88 ..... 152
Idaho.................................... 126 ..... 181
Illinois................................... 29 ..... 62
Kansas................................. 111 ..... 173
Louisiana ............................. 49 ..... 83
Michigan .............................. 32 ..... 59
Minnesota ............................ 38 ..... 76
Mississippi ........................... 35 ..... 64
Missouri ................................ 19 ..... 47
Montana................................. 42 ..... 77
Nebraska ............................... 73 ..... 122
Nevada .................................. 90 ..... 160
New Mexico ..........................101 ..... 159
North Dakota......................... 29 ..... 55
Oklahoma ............................. 103 .....198
Oregon................................... 70 ..... 136
South Dakota......................... 39 ..... 78
Texas ....................................159 .....219
Utah ...................................... 72 .....122
Washington .......................... 87 .....151
Wisconsin............................. 38 ..... 82
Wyoming .............................. 70 ..... 120
Bob, thanks for this info.


Rick Bowen
TSRA Life Member
NRA Member

Without the 2nd Amendment,
the rest are just suggestions.
charles krin
2003-09-30 17:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob G
Also, consider your comments alluding to the fact that agricultural
wells can considerable affect water table levels. True enough ...
they CAN. Depending on area and available water sources. But in many
areas there is a LOT of water. And such farm irrigation has from
little to no measureable effect.
I do know that here in Louisiana, intensive farm irrigation can have
an affect on relatively shallow wells (my ex MIL took the city water
when they finally piped out to her area because of that), but that
much of the drop of the Sparta Aquifer is actually attributed to the
use of deep water by the paper and chemical industries.

To the point where one complex just got an award for developing a plan
to use river water for the paper mill, cleaning it up and then sending
it to a pair of chemical plants (mostly for cooling there), and then
on to the city parks department for the golf and recreation courses.

ck

Bob G
2003-08-31 22:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Post by Myal
It's not very much water to store in one sense, but it gets
us through our typical power failures (we have a 1.6 gallon
per flush toilet and that helps). We keep the jerricans
filled with water at all times, changing it about every six
months. We have a well and the power goes off frequently
here. No electricity = no water.
When we lived on the farm my Dad owned , we had windmills pumping water
for
Post by Myal
us , it was years before we had power , and even then , the mills stayed .
Are windmills impracticle where you are ?
Windmills are for immediately subsurface water, which was plentiful before
powered pumps lowered water tables. Could still work, depending on
the source of your aquifer.
Dan
Hmmmm. What do you consider "immediate subsurface water"? I've seen
plenty of wind powered pumps pump down to around 100 ft.

BTW, whether or not powered pumps have lowered a water table ...
depends upon where you live. There is a LOT of land not effected by
large pumps. Keep in mind that in the U.S., at least, the vast
majority of people live on a small piece of the land.

Plenty of people in the county I live in, around 50,000. But they're
scattered pretty widely. Almost all of them have homes with wells and
septic systems

The water table? I could easily dig with a shovel for a couple hours
and hit the water table. My well is 60 feet deep, but that is only
for safety's sake, not necessity.

Bob
j***@yahoo.com
2003-08-29 12:52:14 UTC
Permalink
How much water do you use each day?
The typical home uses about 5 gallons. This should be
minimized in an emergency.
You should prepare for about three gallons of water per
person, per day. This is for cooking, cleaning and drinking.
I would keep at least a supply to last a month. That's a lot of
bottled water but it is a comfortable quantity that can be
extended by decreasing water for cleaning.
Yeah.... you are right. A case of bottled water wont
be enough to wash with or anything like that.

I guess I should buy some of those jerry cans that was
mentioned earlier in this thread huh?

You see.... I live in a small apt....so storage of
water is a problem.

However like Tim said earlier.... if we just have
enough brains to fill up the bathtub and other
containers just as a crisis is happening that would be
a big help there
" (leon skunkers)" <>
2003-08-29 18:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
How much water do you use each day?
The typical home uses about 5 gallons. This should be
minimized in an emergency.
You should prepare for about three gallons of water per
person, per day. This is for cooking, cleaning and drinking.
I would keep at least a supply to last a month. That's a lot of
bottled water but it is a comfortable quantity that can be
extended by decreasing water for cleaning.
Yeah.... you are right. A case of bottled water wont
be enough to wash with or anything like that.
I guess I should buy some of those jerry cans that was
mentioned earlier in this thread huh?
Replace whatever you are sleeping on with waterbeds.

Store a shitload of water in them. Supposed to be good for your back,
too.
Post by j***@yahoo.com
You see.... I live in a small apt....so storage of
water is a problem.
However like Tim said earlier.... if we just have
enough brains to fill up the bathtub and other
containers just as a crisis is happening that would be
a big help there
Sewmaster
2003-08-29 18:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by " (leon skunkers)" <>
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Yeah.... you are right. A case of bottled water wont
be enough to wash with or anything like that.
I guess I should buy some of those jerry cans that was
mentioned earlier in this thread huh?
Replace whatever you are sleeping on with waterbeds.
No, don't. Waterbeds need a chemical in the water to prevent
things growing inside the mattress. This water isn't suitable
for drinking & I for one wouldn't wash with it either.
I sleep on a waterbed & have for 20 years.

Sewmaster
jpatti
2003-08-30 16:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sewmaster
No, don't. Waterbeds need a chemical in the water to prevent
things growing inside the mattress. This water isn't suitable
for drinking & I for one wouldn't wash with it either.
I sleep on a waterbed & have for 20 years.
You can replace that chemical with bleach, much cheaper. I never
bought that stuff and I had waterbeds for well over a decade and
nothing natsy grew in a year or two at a time.

It basically does the same thing that bleach in stored water does,
keeps nasties from growing. Thus it would be fine as an emergency
water source.
On-Liner
2003-09-02 14:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Sports stores will sell you collapsable plastic 5 gallon
(or maybe larger) water containers you can store flat
empty but fill fast.
Good idea!
Those collapsible containers would be the way to go for
me
Just remember to keep an eye on them once they're full.
Every brand I've seen so far (3 different ones) leaks after a while.
It's a slow process and it's usually around the on/off valve.
Sideband
2003-09-02 18:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by On-Liner
Sports stores will sell you collapsable plastic 5 gallon
(or maybe larger) water containers you can store flat
empty but fill fast.
Good idea!
Those collapsible containers would be the way to go for
me
Just remember to keep an eye on them once they're full.
Every brand I've seen so far (3 different ones) leaks after a while.
It's a slow process and it's usually around the on/off valve.
I keep one of them full of cold water on the bottom shelf of my fridge
for daily drinking. It's been there for a bit over 2 years now with
no leaks. I think I got this one at Walmart.

KB9WFK
A.T. Hagan
2003-08-28 14:14:37 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:00:07 -0700, Tim May
Post by Tim May
(I have a Katadyn ceramic filter, the one that the U.N uses, the one
that allows the user to essentially drink out of any mud puddle.
Doesn't handle viruses or giardia, though.)
That's a good filter. It should have no problem handling any protozoa
or cysts (Giardia and the like) and bacteria but you're right about
the viruses. Fortunately they're easy to handle with most any
chemical sanitizer.

The one thing that pure ceramic filters don't deal with is any sort of
chemical contamination. In the back country that generally is not a
concern but for disaster related expedient water supplies it could be
a big one.

There's only three practical methods of dealing with chemical
contamination that I can think of off hand and that's activated
charcoal, reverse osmosis, or distillation. All three have their
strengths and weaknesses. I went with activated charcoal myself.

The inflatable pool is an excellent idea. I've been watching sales at
our local China marts for just such things.

.....Alan.
jpatti
2003-08-29 10:48:53 UTC
Permalink
We just started doing the water thing. Basically, we had a huge pile
of 2-liter pop bottles saved, that we were going to do something with
someday, and we're using those for water storage.
I keep a small bottle of bleach with an eyedropper in my kitchen.
Every day when I do dishes, I fill a couple bottles, add a few drops
of bleach and add to our collection. If my freezer isn't full, I
forego the bleach and just freeze it.
Giant ice cubes come in pretty handy with a cooler or such... or when
we had a bunch of guests for a barbecue recently, fridge was full of
food, so I used giant ice cubes to cool the beer and wine coolers.
Plus the freezer works more efficiently when full.
I had planned to get around to storing water and never got around to
it, this daily bit of doing it when doing the dishes allows me to do
it gradually so it's not a big chore.
The plan is after I've been doing this for six months, to start using
the oldest stored water to water the chickens. That way, I can refill
a few at a time, also just as part of a regular daily chore, and keep
the water rotated.

I started doing this as it fits better into the way we do things...
like Bob's wife, I cook large amounts and can or freeze the excess
(not just for emergencies, but for when I don't feel like cooking).
We also stock up hugely on stuff when it's on sale, etc. I have
gotten us to the point of having about 3 months worth of stuff and a
year's worth of some items, and probably 2 yeras worth of wheat (we
grind our own flour and I bake our rbead). I'm aiming for a year for
most goods, 2 years for fresh canned produce. It's not *emergency*
food, it's the food we eat regularly... just we're building our own
little grocery store.
It saves a lot of money buying like this and it is available in case
of emergency, the only real difference being we'd be cooking over wood
or propane rather than the stove.
Of course we have a campstove, though we never use it for camping,
prefering to cook over a woodfire (we do this in our yard too,we have
a designated fire pit). We also have an old wood stove we picked up
at an auction for just a few bucks, so could probably even bake if the
electric were off for a long while.
And yeah, we keep oil lamps, candles and other stuff... it's not
uncommon for us to lose electric for a day or two. We also have
camping gear cause we camp occasionally, and discovered that carbide
head lamps work real well for reading in bed last time we lost
electric. ;)
Last year we were snowed in for over a week and basically our lives
weren't affected at all. The only stuff we have to buy regularly is
milk and cream, and I do keep powdered milk on hand for cooking
purposes (we hate the stuff to drink) and powdered creamer for coffee,
so we can do without the fresh dairy if needed.
We also have a LOT of board games and a LOT of books. Boredom can be
a killer.

When you're stocked up and prepared, these little emergencies are
more like an adventure than a crisis. A week snowed in just means we
get a bonus vacation.
MerryStahel
2003-08-29 12:46:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by jpatti
We also have a LOT of board games and a LOT of books. Boredom can be
a killer.
Find a hobby that doesn't require electricity or modern conveniences.

Many of the quilters on the quilter's NG have made it a point to buy old
treadle sewing machines, refurbishing them, and learning to use them, so if the
power goes out, they can continue to quilt. I have one, but am not sure how
to use it, as I've not let Pa look at it and refurbish it for me, just yet <G>.


Merry

Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once
http://www.stardancerpress.com/MerryStahel/
http://community.webshots.com/user/merrystahel
Out There
2003-08-31 16:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Wouldn't storing enough food/water for a year be a poor choice from a
frugality point of view? Say it costs $30 per month's worth of stored
food/water. If you stored enough for a month so that you can tough out any
short term emergencies, wouldn't it be better to put the other $330 towards
something that will increase in value rather than not?
Pat Meadows
2003-08-31 19:36:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:21:39 GMT, Out There
Post by Out There
Wouldn't storing enough food/water for a year be a poor choice from a
frugality point of view? Say it costs $30 per month's worth of stored
food/water. If you stored enough for a month so that you can tough out any
short term emergencies, wouldn't it be better to put the other $330 towards
something that will increase in value rather than not?
What makes you think food doesn't increase in value? It
certainly does in inflationary periods (most of the time).
Well-planned and rotated stored food doesn't go bad either,
it's eaten before it can.

'Eat what you store and store what you eat' is the best
advice.

In many cases, I'll stock up on much more than a month's
supply of a particular food because we've found a
spectacular sale which won't recur for a while (if ever).
We bought about six to eight month's worth of canned
pineapple (the no-sugar kind) when it was on sale for 79
cents for a large can, for instance. We've not seen it for
less than 99 cents/can since, usually more.

We bought almost a year's supply of decaffeinated coffee
(the only kind we drink) because it was - very briefly - on
sale for about 40% of its usual price.

I never heard or read anyone advocating storage of a year's
supply of water: this would be a tremendous quantity of
water! Most of the recommendations I've seen are for
several *days* worth of water.

A desirable [stored food to cash] ratio is going to vary
with the individual. Members of the Church of Latter Day
Saints (Mormons) are advised by their church to store a
year's supply of needed items. Most of us don't have that
particular reason, but many people are more comfortable with
more than a month's supply of food on hand. It's really an
example of a YMMV thing.

Pat
Out There
2003-08-31 22:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Meadows
On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:21:39 GMT, Out There
Post by Out There
Wouldn't storing enough food/water for a year be a poor choice from a
frugality point of view? Say it costs $30 per month's worth of stored
food/water. If you stored enough for a month so that you can tough
out any short term emergencies, wouldn't it be better to put the other
$330 towards something that will increase in value rather than not?
What makes you think food doesn't increase in value? It
certainly does in inflationary periods (most of the time).
Well-planned and rotated stored food doesn't go bad either,
it's eaten before it can.
It doesn't appreciate because of 2 factors:
1. It's getting closer to its expiration date, with the implication that it
is slowly becoming less nutritious and more likely to be spoiled.
2. Any increase in absolute monetary value is likely to track the inflation
rate, which means it's worth about the same as it did before.

Also, any money locked in stored food will not be liquid assets, the value
is kind of theoretical. Replacement value, not sale value.
Post by Pat Meadows
'Eat what you store and store what you eat' is the best
advice.
Preachin' to the choir. =)

I believe in stocking up too, just in case an emergency or natural disaster
happens.

(Problem is most everything I eat is fresh, not canned/processed/vacuum-
sealed.)

<snip shopping>
Post by Pat Meadows
I never heard or read anyone advocating storage of a year's
supply of water: this would be a tremendous quantity of
water! Most of the recommendations I've seen are for
several *days* worth of water.
"I was thinking of putting this moat in my front lawn..." =)
What's the number quoted for a person's requirements, 5 liters for
drinking, 20 liters for washing etc a day? So a 28'x12'x'4.5' pool is
enough for 2 people for a year. Not completely impossible. Being able to
change that much stagnant water into potable, however, is another story.
Post by Pat Meadows
A desirable [stored food to cash] ratio is going to vary
with the individual. Members of the Church of Latter Day
Saints (Mormons) are advised by their church to store a
year's supply of needed items. Most of us don't have that
particular reason, but many people are more comfortable with
more than a month's supply of food on hand. It's really an
example of a YMMV thing.
That's why I specified "from a frugality point of view." Things change if
seen from a religious or survival point of view.

I'm still trying to find my preferred stored-food-to-cash ratio. Right now
I'm at ~3 days (huge bags of grains not withstanding), but I'm trying to
change that to a few weeks. Not being a consumer of canned foods makes
this somewhat difficult though...
Out There
2003-09-01 06:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Out There
1. It's getting closer to its expiration date, with the implication
that it is slowly becoming less nutritious and more likely to be
spoiled.
But if you are rotating it, the expiration date shouldn't matter. Most
canned products and staples (pasta, rice, etc) will last for *years*.
Rotating through a one-year stock will not result in an appreciable
loss of nutrition.
Yes, it's a near-negligible effect.
Post by Out There
2. Any increase in absolute monetary value is likely to track the
inflation rate, which means it's worth about the same as it did
before.
Which means it's worth the same as it was when you bought it. So you
may not be ahead, financially, but you haven't lost anything, either.
The loss is in the possible profits one could have made if one invested the
money. It's like that invest-or-pay-off-mortgage question.
Post by Out There
Also, any money locked in stored food will not be liquid assets, the
value is kind of theoretical. Replacement value, not sale value.
It will certainly be "liquid assets" if you are ever in a position
where you need to use it! "Replacement value" for food is a little
different than "replacement value" for, say, a VCR or new sofa.
Hmm I'm going to have to think about this one a little bit.

Okay, liquid assets allows you to change it from one form to another
easily. Only in certain situations does this seem to be true for canned
goods, such as when there's a shortage or an unanticipated demand.

If I had to guess, I would say that a catastrophic event where you need a
year's store of food is less likely than a catastrophic event where you
need the equivalent money plus the interest it earned.
Post by Out There
I believe in stocking up too, just in case an emergency or natural
disaster happens.
(Problem is most everything I eat is fresh, not
canned/processed/vacuum- sealed.)
You obviously live in a part of the world where fresh produce is
available year-round. In less temperate climates, we need to rely on
some canned stuff.
Post by Out There
I'm still trying to find my preferred stored-food-to-cash ratio.
Right now I'm at ~3 days (huge bags of grains not withstanding), but
I'm trying to change that to a few weeks. Not being a consumer of
canned foods makes this somewhat difficult though...
Do you not eat pasta? Rice? Potatoes, carrots, onions & apples? These
things all last much longer than three days, and they are not canned.
I am on a low-glycemic-index diet, so no rice, potatoes, or pasta. (Huge
bag of grain a remainder from pre-diet days) Carrots, onions, yes. Fruit,
only a little bit. I eat mostly unprocessed meat (which in a power-outage
emergency may stay cold in the fridge for a day) and vegetables. Thus I'm
faced with: "store what I don't eat", unless I start raising chickens to be
living storage/converters-of-grain-into-meat. But I'm sure that will run
afowl of city ordinances, or end up ruffling the feathers of my neighbors.
=P
Robert F Wieland
2003-09-12 19:01:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.teranews.com>,
Out There <***@erewhon.com> wrote:
[huge snip]
I eat mostly unprocessed meat (which in a power-outage emergency may
"store what I don't eat", unless I start raising chickens to be living
storage/converters-of-grain-into-meat. But I'm sure that will run afowl
of city ordinances, or end up ruffling the feathers of my neighbors.
Yes, the folks across the street & up one kept Bantams for a few months.
Apparently the students renting around here complained about the crowing
at dawn, and the City sent them a letter. I thought that was too bad,
don't ask me whether the chickens or those students made the better
neighbors unless you want an long & angry answer...
--
R F Wieland Newark, DE 19711-5323 USA 39.68N 75.74W
Icom R75 Heathkit GR-81 Inverted-L in the attic
Reply to wieland at me dot udel dot edu
Pat Meadows
2003-09-14 15:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert F Wieland
Yes, the folks across the street & up one kept Bantams for a few months.
Apparently the students renting around here complained about the crowing
at dawn, and the City sent them a letter. I thought that was too bad,
don't ask me whether the chickens or those students made the better
neighbors unless you want an long & angry answer...
I don't need to ask!

I lived in Newark (Delaware) for ten years, and in a
student-rental neighborhood at that... (Yes, I worked at
UDEL.)

Pat
--
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
JonquilJan
2003-09-14 19:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Meadows
Post by Robert F Wieland
Yes, the folks across the street & up one kept Bantams for a few months.
Apparently the students renting around here complained about the crowing
at dawn, and the City sent them a letter. I thought that was too bad,
don't ask me whether the chickens or those students made the better
neighbors unless you want an long & angry answer...
I don't need to ask!
I lived in Newark (Delaware) for ten years, and in a
student-rental neighborhood at that... (Yes, I worked at
UDEL.)
Pat
When I lived in the city (Erie PA) there was a drug rehabilitation half way
house directly in back of us. Didn't even know that's what it was for over
a year. Absolutely no problem. Across the street, in the front, a
fraternity from the college (Gannon) moved in. We knew thats what they were
on moving day! And the police were there 3 out of 4 weekends every month.

I'll take a recovering drug addict over a fraternity party boy any day. At
least as a neighbor.

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying
Barbara Bomberger
2003-09-01 10:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Out There
Post by Pat Meadows
On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:21:39 GMT, Out There
Post by Out There
Wouldn't storing enough food/water for a year be a poor choice from a
frugality point of view? Say it costs $30 per month's worth of stored
food/water. If you stored enough for a month so that you can tough
out any short term emergencies, wouldn't it be better to put the other
$330 towards something that will increase in value rather than not?
What makes you think food doesn't increase in value? It
certainly does in inflationary periods (most of the time).
Well-planned and rotated stored food doesn't go bad either,
it's eaten before it can.
1. It's getting closer to its expiration date, with the implication that it
is slowly becoming less nutritious and more likely to be spoiled.
This issue is negligible if food is properly stored and rotated. Most
of those kind of items will be equally nutritious wether three months
r one year.
Post by Out There
2. Any increase in absolute monetary value is likely to track the inflation
rate, which means it's worth about the same as it did before.
Again, that assumes that one has paid the going price originally,
which many or most of us do not.
Post by Out There
Also, any money locked in stored food will not be liquid assets, the value
is kind of theoretical. Replacement value, not sale value.
But no one has said that they dont also have money in liuquid assets.
One generally does both.
Post by Out There
Post by Pat Meadows
I never heard or read anyone advocating storage of a year's
supply of water: this would be a tremendous quantity of
water! Most of the recommendations I've seen are for
several *days* worth of water.
One generally stores some water and then purification pills for the
rest
Post by Out There
Post by Pat Meadows
A desirable [stored food to cash] ratio is going to vary
with the individual. Members of the Church of Latter Day
Saints (Mormons) are advised by their church to store a
year's supply of needed items. Most of us don't have that
particular reason, but many people are more comfortable with
more than a month's supply of food on hand. It's really an
example of a YMMV thing.
That's why I specified "from a frugality point of view." Things change if
seen from a religious or survival point of view.
The mormon requirement as I understand it is not a "religious or
survival point of view" but a frugality and ability to share point of
view.

Barb
Barbara Bomberger
2003-08-31 21:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Out There
Wouldn't storing enough food/water for a year be a poor choice from a
frugality point of view? Say it costs $30 per month's worth of stored
food/water. If you stored enough for a month so that you can tough out any
short term emergencies, wouldn't it be better to put the other $330 towards
something that will increase in value rather than not?
Well, food often increases in value in hard times, first of all.

Secondly, If one shops only sales and loss leaders, then you have
bought a lot of food at less than the normal price (This point doesnt
have to do with storing for a year necessarily but does have to do
with "stocking up" and food storage. When I lived in VA, I never
paid full price for Hardly anything, and only bought loss leaders and
milk and produce each week. Because of shopping this way I
automaically had about three months of food on hand. I didnt have the
water I should have.

Also, if one stocks up slowly and builds up the pantry/storage then in
terms of time and effort i have saved. By purchasing loss leader
items a few each week, I have expended no extra energy or time, other
than my normal shopping trip. This means that during an emergency,
that is energy and time that I have to spend in other ways rather than
searching for food.

I should also add, if Sewmaster doesnt mind me using her as an
example, that it can take one through longer personal emergencies. I
think that she would vouch for the fact that having alot of food
storage has been equally as important as the monetary savings.

FWIW I dont believe that one should only stock food. I stock extra
non food items, first aid items, paper, pens, you name it, I had it in
my pantry (The had is because moving to germany they wouldnt move it,
so I dontated it all and will start all over). I now live in a rented
house, and more importantly, have little pantry and no loss leader
sales (sob!!!!!!!).

I also dont necessarily think that one year is necessarily the
benchmark, but I think storage of something is helpful.

Barb
Karen Wheless
2003-09-01 19:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@comcast.net
I'm wondering if anyone stores food/water for long periods of time.
I just discovered (the hard way, unfortunately) that if you're going to
store water, you need to be very careful in how you store it.

I live in a very small apartment - my kitchen is so tiny I have to store
many of my dishes and pans in my living room, my bathroom is so tiny
that I have to step over the toilet to reach the sink. So storage of
extra water in the kitchen or bathroom is almost impossible. I don't
have any outside storage, no garage, etc. But after I had a water
outage last year due to frozen pipes, I thought I'd better accumulate
some water for drinking, at least. I had a couple of water jugs
(sealed, bought from the store) stored on my bookcases in the living
room.

This afternoon, I was sitting at my computer when I heard this odd
dripping sound. It was very soft and I never would have heard it if it
hadn't been very quiet. I thought it was coming from outside, since
it's raining, but I was worried that maybe there was a leak inside. It
seemed to be coming from the wall between my bathroom and living room,
so I wondered if the bathtub was leaking. So I started looking for the
leak. I moved furniture, felt along walls, etc. No luck. Finally I
felt a wet spot - and I realized it was coming from the bookcase. The
water jug was leaking (although I still can't figure out from where,
there's no obvious leak) and it had soaked down through the bookcase.
The carpet is wet, the bookcase is wet, some blank pads that were stored
nearby are ruined - thankfully no books since they were all above.

Now I'm sort of rethinking water storage. I don't have any place to
store water except in my (carpeted) living room, and after having major
leakage problems a couple of years ago, and seeing how quickly mold can
grow underneath a carpet (even if the carpet only seems slightly damp on
top), I'm reluctant to risk a more serious spill. If that entire jug
had leaked out (which would have happened if I hadn't been home) I would
have had major problems.

I'm sure that there are more robust ways to store water, but it's hard
to find something that's leakproof and will fit into the tiny spaces I
have available and won't get knocked over (since the only space for
storage has to be shared with my pots and my books and my computer stuff
and my linens - all stored in the bookcases in the living room and
constantly moved around to access things stored in front or behind or
between). I thought these jugs would be perfect since they were small
enough to fit onto bookcase shelves, but I guess not.

Karen
Loading...