Discussion:
OK, I give up... how do I get out?
(too old to reply)
Mike (Remove X's to reply)
2004-10-15 02:55:39 UTC
Permalink
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.

How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.

Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).

Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.

Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.

Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.

Any thoughts, ideas?

Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.

Thanks,

Mike

--
To reply via email remove the X's from my email address:
***@gwis.com
Casey
2004-10-15 03:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Mike (Remove X's to reply) said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Well, can't help much since I've been self-employed for over 16 years.
On the other hand, I've had my own health insurance that long as well.
I just switched over to the Florida individual Blue Cross plan a few
years ago. At least if you pay your own, you're not at anyone else's
mercy any more.

(fwiw, I pay $228 a month for my son and I - $500 deductible)



Casey
John Riggs
2004-10-15 08:37:31 UTC
Permalink
I'd like to steer Mike to a company by the name of Computer Sciences
Corporation, a very big company with offices all over the world. From the
number of notices I receive each day, I'd say CSC and Lockheed Martin would
be good bets for him.
Post by Casey
Mike (Remove X's to reply) said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Well, can't help much since I've been self-employed for over 16 years.
On the other hand, I've had my own health insurance that long as well.
I just switched over to the Florida individual Blue Cross plan a few
years ago. At least if you pay your own, you're not at anyone else's
mercy any more.
(fwiw, I pay $228 a month for my son and I - $500 deductible)
Casey
The Real Bev
2004-10-15 20:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Riggs
I'd like to steer Mike to a company by the name of Computer Sciences
Corporation, a very big company with offices all over the world. From the
number of notices I receive each day, I'd say CSC and Lockheed Martin would
be good bets for him.
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If you see me running, try to keep up."
...Back of bomb technician's shirt
Sparky
2004-10-16 03:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
I second that opinion. CSC is yet another faceless Defense/Civil Government
Contractor with some pretty inept management.
The Real Bev
2004-10-16 05:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky
Post by The Real Bev
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
I second that opinion. CSC is yet another faceless Defense/Civil Government
Contractor with some pretty inept management.
1978-1990. How about you?
--
Cheers,
Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Marketing Professional's Motto: "We don't screw the customers. All
we're doing is holding them down while the salespeople screw them."
-- Scott Adams
Sparky
2004-10-16 15:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Sparky
I second that opinion. CSC is yet another faceless Defense/Civil Government
Contractor with some pretty inept management.
1978-1990. How about you?
1984-1986
Nyssa
2004-10-18 21:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky
Post by The Real Bev
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
I second that opinion. CSC is yet another faceless Defense/Civil Government
Contractor with some pretty inept management.
I'll third that. I suffered with CSC for five and a half
years.

Good old boy club with the emphasis on ex-military good old
boys whether they had any background in computer science or
not, usually not.

And you've got the cycles of wins and no-wins on government
contracts to deal with on top of it all.

Nyssa, a used-to-be, has-been
John Riggs
2004-10-16 09:03:40 UTC
Permalink
I had a good experience there....and come Monday, I will again (I hope).
Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Riggs
I'd like to steer Mike to a company by the name of Computer Sciences
Corporation, a very big company with offices all over the world. From the
number of notices I receive each day, I'd say CSC and Lockheed Martin would
be good bets for him.
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If you see me running, try to keep up."
...Back of bomb technician's shirt
Rambler
2004-10-16 12:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Riggs
I had a good experience there....and come Monday, I will again (I hope).
That's good news. A job, yes? (Boy do I envy you! ;-) )

Rambler
Post by John Riggs
Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Riggs
I'd like to steer Mike to a company by the name of Computer Sciences
Corporation, a very big company with offices all over the world. From the
number of notices I receive each day, I'd say CSC and Lockheed Martin would
be good bets for him.
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If you see me running, try to keep up."
...Back of bomb technician's shirt
John Riggs
2004-10-16 23:58:59 UTC
Permalink
I'm trying to help you. I hear tell, there may be more openings. This is
just the first volley in this project. Now if you were stateside it would
help, but I understand they have offices all over. It couldn't hurt to look
at their web page. I'll actually be for a subsidiary.
Post by Rambler
Post by John Riggs
I had a good experience there....and come Monday, I will again (I hope).
That's good news. A job, yes? (Boy do I envy you! ;-) )
Rambler
Post by John Riggs
Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Riggs
I'd like to steer Mike to a company by the name of Computer Sciences
Corporation, a very big company with offices all over the world. From the
number of notices I receive each day, I'd say CSC and Lockheed Martin would
be good bets for him.
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If you see me running, try to keep up."
...Back of bomb technician's shirt
John Riggs
2004-10-16 09:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Any comments on Lockheed? Mike needs the work.
Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Riggs
I'd like to steer Mike to a company by the name of Computer Sciences
Corporation, a very big company with offices all over the world. From the
number of notices I receive each day, I'd say CSC and Lockheed Martin would
be good bets for him.
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If you see me running, try to keep up."
...Back of bomb technician's shirt
Bill in Co.
2004-10-16 18:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Are they still working on the X1? I can't remember.
Post by John Riggs
Any comments on Lockheed? Mike needs the work.
Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Riggs
I'd like to steer Mike to a company by the name of Computer Sciences
Corporation, a very big company with offices all over the world. From the
number of notices I receive each day, I'd say CSC and Lockheed Martin would
be good bets for him.
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If you see me running, try to keep up."
...Back of bomb technician's shirt
The Real Bev
2004-10-17 05:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Riggs
Any comments on Lockheed? Mike needs the work.
Didn't Lockheed people just drop something expensive on the cement floor
because somebody thought that somebody else tightened the nuts and
NOBODY was following the proper procedure? Real shame we can't point
with pride any more...

I am coming to believe that by the time a company is big enough to have
its own employee handbook it's time to move on. Loyalty between company
and employee is a thing of the past, and without confidence in
continuity you might as well have the fun of working for a company that
isn't yet strangling itself in its own paperwork.
Post by John Riggs
Post by The Real Bev
Post by John Riggs
I'd like to steer Mike to a company by the name of Computer Sciences
Corporation, a very big company with offices all over the world. From the
number of notices I receive each day, I'd say CSC and Lockheed Martin
would be good bets for him.
The quality of a company is directly related to the quality of your
immediate supervisor(s). When I worked there, CSC sucked.
--
Cheers, Bev
===================================================
Red ship crashes into blue ship - sailors marooned.
m***@privacy.net
2004-10-18 15:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
I am coming to believe that by the time a company is big enough to have
its own employee handbook it's time to move on. Loyalty between company
and employee is a thing of the past, and without confidence in
continuity you might as well have the fun of working for a company that
isn't yet strangling itself in its own paperwork.
Are you saying that you feel working for a very small
company is best?

Something like say a 10 man "team"?
The Real Bev
2004-10-18 21:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@privacy.net
Post by The Real Bev
I am coming to believe that by the time a company is big enough to have
its own employee handbook it's time to move on. Loyalty between company
and employee is a thing of the past, and without confidence in
continuity you might as well have the fun of working for a company that
isn't yet strangling itself in its own paperwork.
Are you saying that you feel working for a very small
company is best?
Something like say a 10 man "team"?
Yes. More fun, easier to get (or make) an authoritative decision, less
crap paperwork and regulation to deal with, more opportunity to make a
difference, more diverse list of activities.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My life outside of USENET is so full of love and kindness that I have
to come here to find the venom and bile that I crave." --R. Damiani
m***@privacy.net
2004-10-19 13:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Post by m***@privacy.net
Are you saying that you feel working for a very small
company is best?
Something like say a 10 man "team"?
Yes. More fun, easier to get (or make) an authoritative decision, less
crap paperwork and regulation to deal with, more opportunity to make a
difference, more diverse list of activities.
That's what I "thought" you meant

And Im glad to hear you say this cause Im coming to
this conclusion as well.... i.e. work i a small highly
motivated "team" of people. People who work SMART and
not HARD. People who work at a relaxing pace.... but
also people nit goofing around.
m***@privacy.net
2004-10-19 13:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Yes. More fun, easier to get (or make) an authoritative decision, less
crap paperwork and regulation to deal with, more opportunity to make a
difference, more diverse list of activities.
What areas of employment could one have such a work
environment above?
The Real Bev
2004-10-19 21:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@privacy.net
Post by The Real Bev
Yes. More fun, easier to get (or make) an authoritative decision, less
crap paperwork and regulation to deal with, more opportunity to make a
difference, more diverse list of activities.
What areas of employment could one have such a work
environment above?
Probably something technical. Remember, luck plays a big part!
--
Cheers,
Bev
==================================================================
"America is at an awkward stage: it is too late to work within the
system, but it is too early to shoot the bastards." -Claire Wolfe
John Riggs
2004-10-15 03:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Granted, it makes the programmers tremble, as well they should. It is an
abomination that a six figure programmer asks temp IT or regular IT guy how
to do his job, but it's happening with increasing frequency. Perhaps they
need to adjust their priorities to accommodate a lifestyle of the lesser
incomes of us poor overworked or out of work IT guys. It might well sober
them up.
The up side is that most of those programming jobs heading overseas are
being done over pipes we regular IT folks are maintaining. Without us, THEY
don't have a job. You might want to look at it as job security.
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.
Thanks,
Mike
--
Mike (Remove X's to reply)
2004-10-15 03:27:00 UTC
Permalink
That's a good point, John, but all of my experience has been on the
development end... might be more difficult to transfer that over to the
administrative end. Not that I couldn't do it, but I have to compete with
other guys whom that's ALL they've ever done.

Thanks,

Mike

--
Post by John Riggs
Granted, it makes the programmers tremble, as well they should. It is an
abomination that a six figure programmer asks temp IT or regular IT guy how
to do his job, but it's happening with increasing frequency. Perhaps they
need to adjust their priorities to accommodate a lifestyle of the lesser
incomes of us poor overworked or out of work IT guys. It might well sober
them up.
The up side is that most of those programming jobs heading overseas are
being done over pipes we regular IT folks are maintaining. Without us, THEY
don't have a job. You might want to look at it as job security.
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.
Thanks,
Mike
--
"Raul" <raulguadarrama@($)hotmail.com>
2004-10-15 03:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Since you decided to post this into alt.support.divorce, I guess you can
marry a rich, divorced lady and life "happy" the rest of your life.

Raul
Mike (Remove X's to reply)
2004-10-15 03:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by "Raul" <raulguadarrama@($)hotmail.com>
Since you decided to post this into alt.support.divorce, I guess you can
marry a rich, divorced lady and life "happy" the rest of your life.
Raul
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is I can
find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd, I hate that
word when it comes out of a female mouth).

I posted in ASD 'cos I have lots of friends there and there are a good
number of IT folks, too. It wasn't meant to be some sort of spam. These
groups I attend frequently and offer good advice.

Thanks,

Mike
Casey
2004-10-15 19:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Post by "Raul" <raulguadarrama@($)hotmail.com>
Since you decided to post this into alt.support.divorce, I guess you can
marry a rich, divorced lady and life "happy" the rest of your life.
Or a rich widow ... like Teresa Heinz?
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is I can
find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd, I hate that
word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".

I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
I posted in ASD 'cos I have lots of friends there and there are a good
number of IT folks, too. It wasn't meant to be some sort of spam. These
groups I attend frequently and offer good advice.
It was entirely reasonable to post it here - look at the number of good
replies.


Casey
DrLith
2004-10-15 20:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
I wuz gonna ask when I saw you trolling for women's pictures on ASD!
Casey
2004-10-15 20:44:52 UTC
Permalink
DrLith said ...
Post by DrLith
Post by Casey
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
I wuz gonna ask when I saw you trolling for women's pictures on ASD!
Yeah, and it's not like it worked either ... still no pictures!


Casey
Joel M. Eichen
2004-10-15 21:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Post by "Raul" <raulguadarrama@($)hotmail.com>
Since you decided to post this into alt.support.divorce, I guess you can
marry a rich, divorced lady and life "happy" the rest of your life.
Or a rich widow ... like Teresa Heinz?
Nope, she's tooken.
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is I can
find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd, I hate that
word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
That's the mystery ...... good women like BAD BOYS!
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
I posted in ASD 'cos I have lots of friends there and there are a good
number of IT folks, too. It wasn't meant to be some sort of spam. These
groups I attend frequently and offer good advice.
It was entirely reasonable to post it here - look at the number of good
replies.
Casey
Bill in Co.
2004-10-15 22:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel M. Eichen
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Post by "Raul" <raulguadarrama@($)hotmail.com>
Since you decided to post this into alt.support.divorce, I guess you can
marry a rich, divorced lady and life "happy" the rest of your life.
Or a rich widow ... like Teresa Heinz?
Nope, she's tooken.
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is I can
find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd, I hate that
word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
That's the mystery ...... good women like BAD BOYS!
I know, that's why I'm trying to be as bad as I can be.

(just kidding)
Rod Speed
2004-10-15 22:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel M. Eichen
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Post by "Raul" <raulguadarrama@($)hotmail.com>
Since you decided to post this into alt.support.divorce, I guess you can
marry a rich, divorced lady and life "happy" the rest of your life.
Or a rich widow ... like Teresa Heinz?
Nope, she's tooken.
How unspeakable.
Post by Joel M. Eichen
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is I can
find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd, I hate that
word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
That's the mystery ...... good women like BAD BOYS!
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
I posted in ASD 'cos I have lots of friends there and there are a good
number of IT folks, too. It wasn't meant to be some sort of spam. These
groups I attend frequently and offer good advice.
It was entirely reasonable to post it here - look at the number of good
replies.
Casey
Joel M. Eichen
2004-10-15 21:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Post by "Raul" <raulguadarrama@($)hotmail.com>
Since you decided to post this into alt.support.divorce, I guess you can
marry a rich, divorced lady and life "happy" the rest of your life.
Or a rich widow ... like Teresa Heinz?
Nope, she's tooken.
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is I can
find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd, I hate that
word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
That's the mystery ...... good women like BAD BOYS!
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
I posted in ASD 'cos I have lots of friends there and there are a good
number of IT folks, too. It wasn't meant to be some sort of spam. These
groups I attend frequently and offer good advice.
It was entirely reasonable to post it here - look at the number of good
replies.
Casey
LoriMc
2004-10-16 02:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Post by "Raul" <raulguadarrama@($)hotmail.com>
Since you decided to post this into alt.support.divorce, I guess
you can marry a rich, divorced lady and life "happy" the rest of
your life.
Or a rich widow ... like Teresa Heinz?
Umm I'm thinkin she is pretty much taken.
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is
I can find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd,
I hate that word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
Ouch, I guess this is not the most terrible thing to happen, but still I'm
sorry to hear this.
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
I posted in ASD 'cos I have lots of friends there and there are a
good number of IT folks, too. It wasn't meant to be some sort of
spam. These groups I attend frequently and offer good advice.
It was entirely reasonable to post it here - look at the number of
good replies.
Exactly, while we all don't see eye to eye on everything. Your among
friends Mike.

Lori Mc
Casey
2004-10-16 17:02:22 UTC
Permalink
LoriMc said ...
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is
I can find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd,
I hate that word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
Ouch, I guess this is not the most terrible thing to happen, but still I'm
sorry to hear this.
No, it's not the most terrible thing to happen at all. I'm a little
puzzled though and feeling more than a little "deja vu all over again".
From the beginning, she's been afraid I'd disappear one day - but
ironically, if I do it will be mostly because she's either too afraid
to be very involved or just not all that interested. It's slowly
turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.

On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.



Casey
LoriMc
2004-10-16 17:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
LoriMc said ...
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem
is I can find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends"
(gawd, I hate that word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it
because often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest
relationship seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in
the "good- friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for
a while now.
Ouch, I guess this is not the most terrible thing to happen, but
still I'm sorry to hear this.
No, it's not the most terrible thing to happen at all. I'm a little
puzzled though and feeling more than a little "deja vu all over
again". From the beginning, she's been afraid I'd disappear one day -
but ironically, if I do it will be mostly because she's either too
afraid to be very involved or just not all that interested. It's
slowly turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Is she aware you are feeling like this? You need to talk to her Casey let
her know what's going on in your brain, find out what's going on in hers.
If I learned one thing from getting divorced it's don't assume anything ask
and tell.
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
We're all wired differently. I usually weigh my options and decide if I can
handle the risk or if the outcome good/bad is worth it to me. Some of the
things I have done in my life some would consider down right scary, yet
others would consider mild.

Find out what you both want from this, you have to talk to her. I know
talking can be a scary thing I myself have trouble exposing my true
feelings, and I suspect she does too.
Post by Casey
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Well don't give up yet.

Lori Mc
Casey
2004-10-16 19:21:07 UTC
Permalink
LoriMc said ...
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
LoriMc said ...
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem
is I can find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends"
(gawd, I hate that word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it
because often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest
relationship seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in
the "good- friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for
a while now.
Ouch, I guess this is not the most terrible thing to happen, but
still I'm sorry to hear this.
No, it's not the most terrible thing to happen at all. I'm a little
puzzled though and feeling more than a little "deja vu all over
again". From the beginning, she's been afraid I'd disappear one day -
but ironically, if I do it will be mostly because she's either too
afraid to be very involved or just not all that interested. It's
slowly turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Is she aware you are feeling like this? You need to talk to her Casey let
her know what's going on in your brain, find out what's going on in hers.
If I learned one thing from getting divorced it's don't assume anything ask
and tell.
Well, we have talked some - funny thing is that it's easier through
email even though we only live about 25 miles apart. I brought it up a
few weeks ago and we talked about it a bit.
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
We're all wired differently. I usually weigh my options and decide if I can
handle the risk or if the outcome good/bad is worth it to me. Some of the
things I have done in my life some would consider down right scary, yet
others would consider mild.
Well, same here. On the other hand, you can overdo it to the point of
staying in your safe but unhappy world so much that you're stuck there
- all the while saying you want out of it.
Post by LoriMc
Find out what you both want from this, you have to talk to her. I know
talking can be a scary thing I myself have trouble exposing my true
feelings, and I suspect she does too.
She's good about talking and honest when she does. I don't think she
knows how she feels - actually, I'm not sure I do either. One person's
reluctance affects the other person's feelings.
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Well don't give up yet.
I haven't, but I'll be okay if I do.

Thanks, Lori. :-)


Casey
protrusion
2004-10-16 20:43:50 UTC
Permalink
The problem
Post by Casey
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
is I can find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends"
and I can't find any men who don't want "soulmate" and "forever" and
exclusivity and permanence (read: handcuffs)....well, there are SOME, but
they are 20+ years too young for me!
Post by Casey
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
(gawd, I hate that word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it
because often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest
relationship seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in
the "good- friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for
a while now.
Ouch, I guess this is not the most terrible thing to happen, but
still I'm sorry to hear this.
No, it's not the most terrible thing to happen at all. I'm a little
puzzled though and feeling more than a little "deja vu all over
again". From the beginning, she's been afraid I'd disappear one day -
but ironically, if I do it will be mostly because she's either too
afraid to be very involved or just not all that interested. It's
slowly turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Is she aware you are feeling like this? You need to talk to her Casey let
her know what's going on in your brain, find out what's going on in hers.
If I learned one thing from getting divorced it's don't assume anything ask
and tell.
Well, we have talked some - funny thing is that it's easier through
email even though we only live about 25 miles apart. I brought it up a
few weeks ago and we talked about it a bit.
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
We're all wired differently. I usually weigh my options and decide if I can
handle the risk or if the outcome good/bad is worth it to me. Some of the
things I have done in my life some would consider down right scary, yet
others would consider mild.
Well, same here. On the other hand, you can overdo it to the point of
staying in your safe but unhappy world so much that you're stuck there
- all the while saying you want out of it.
Post by LoriMc
Find out what you both want from this, you have to talk to her. I know
talking can be a scary thing I myself have trouble exposing my true
feelings, and I suspect she does too.
She's good about talking and honest when she does. I don't think she
knows how she feels - actually, I'm not sure I do either. One person's
reluctance affects the other person's feelings.
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Well don't give up yet.
I haven't, but I'll be okay if I do.
Thanks, Lori. :-)
Casey
rambler
2004-10-17 18:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
LoriMc said ...
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Mike said ...
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Hey Raul.. that would be nice... be like John Kerry. The problem is
I can find few ladies who want to be more than just "friends" (gawd,
I hate that word when it comes out of a female mouth).
Hey, it could be worse - as in, "I never want to see you again!".
I'll confess though, I seem to do a great job of bringing out the
"friend" part of a woman. I'm not really complaining about it because
often it's for the best anyway ... however, my latest relationship
seems to have stalled out a bit and has been headed in the "good-
friends-who-spend-a-lot-of-time-together" direction for a while now.
Ouch, I guess this is not the most terrible thing to happen, but still I'm
sorry to hear this.
No, it's not the most terrible thing to happen at all. I'm a little
puzzled though and feeling more than a little "deja vu all over again".
From the beginning, she's been afraid I'd disappear one day - but
ironically, if I do it will be mostly because she's either too afraid
to be very involved or just not all that interested. It's slowly
turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Sorry to hear Casey, but it might be seasonal.

I, on the other hand, am joining the JayCeeLee's and not dealing with
women again. Going to mean a hefty bar tab, but somebody's got to do it.

Rambler
Casey
2004-10-17 05:01:58 UTC
Permalink
rambler said ...
Post by rambler
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Sorry to hear Casey, but it might be seasonal.
I, on the other hand, am joining the JayCeeLee's and not dealing with
women again. Going to mean a hefty bar tab, but somebody's got to do it.
First two rounds (and the next 20) are on me ... I may withdraw myself.

Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a domestic
violence restraining order against me and wants full custody of our
son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems that I've
known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've been working
with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just totally
evaporated.

What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.

My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.

Cheers.


Casey
John Riggs
2004-10-17 05:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Give no quarter, Casey. Don't give up with a fight. Make it real. Make
it hurt, and it will stop.
People don't seem to like having their plots come back to bite them in the
ass. It tends to diminish their enthusiasm.
Post by Casey
rambler said ...
Post by rambler
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Sorry to hear Casey, but it might be seasonal.
I, on the other hand, am joining the JayCeeLee's and not dealing with
women again. Going to mean a hefty bar tab, but somebody's got to do it.
First two rounds (and the next 20) are on me ... I may withdraw myself.
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a domestic
violence restraining order against me and wants full custody of our
son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems that I've
known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've been working
with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just totally
evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
Cheers.
Casey
Bill in Co.
2004-10-17 07:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Riggs
Give no quarter, Casey. Don't give up with a fight. Make it real. Make
it hurt, and it will stop.
People don't seem to like having their plots come back to bite them in the
ass. It tends to diminish their enthusiasm.
Post by Casey
rambler said ...
Post by rambler
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Sorry to hear Casey, but it might be seasonal.
I, on the other hand, am joining the JayCeeLee's and not dealing with
women again. Going to mean a hefty bar tab, but somebody's got to do it.
First two rounds (and the next 20) are on me ... I may withdraw myself.
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a domestic
violence restraining order against me and wants full custody of our
son.
A restraining order for domestic violence?? Wow. I never would have
imagined this (I mean with respect to Casey).
Post by John Riggs
Post by Casey
She's been having some very serious "health" problems that I've
known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've been working
with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just totally
evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
Cheers.
Casey
John Riggs
2004-10-17 08:00:40 UTC
Permalink
It's bogus. Casey knows it's bogus, and the courts will see it as bogus.
Unfortunately, having had one of these on me in Florida, I know what can
happen.
I hope for Casey's sake he gets a judge with a brain and half a lick of
sense.
Post by Bill in Co.
Post by John Riggs
Give no quarter, Casey. Don't give up with a fight. Make it real. Make
it hurt, and it will stop.
People don't seem to like having their plots come back to bite them in the
ass. It tends to diminish their enthusiasm.
Post by Casey
rambler said ...
Post by rambler
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Sorry to hear Casey, but it might be seasonal.
I, on the other hand, am joining the JayCeeLee's and not dealing with
women again. Going to mean a hefty bar tab, but somebody's got to do
it.
Post by John Riggs
Post by Casey
First two rounds (and the next 20) are on me ... I may withdraw myself.
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a domestic
violence restraining order against me and wants full custody of our
son.
A restraining order for domestic violence?? Wow. I never would have
imagined this (I mean with respect to Casey).
Post by John Riggs
Post by Casey
She's been having some very serious "health" problems that I've
known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've been working
with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just totally
evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
Cheers.
Casey
LoriMc
2004-10-17 05:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a
domestic violence restraining order against me and wants full custody
of our son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems
that I've known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've
been working with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just
totally evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
My thoughts are with you and your son...

Lori Mc
Bill in Co.
2004-10-17 07:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a
domestic violence restraining order against me and wants full custody
of our son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems
that I've known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've
been working with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just
totally evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
My thoughts are with you and your son...
Lori Mc
It doesn't seem to make any sense, but maybe we don't know enough?
John Riggs
2004-10-17 08:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Well there is that. but I'm sure it's bogus. It's Casey.
Post by Bill in Co.
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a
domestic violence restraining order against me and wants full custody
of our son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems
that I've known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've
been working with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just
totally evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
My thoughts are with you and your son...
Lori Mc
It doesn't seem to make any sense, but maybe we don't know enough?
Bill in Co.
2004-10-17 08:10:53 UTC
Permalink
I guess I don't get it. How can someone order up and serve a bogus
restraining order, if the whole thing is just vaporware? It would never
get off the ground. (Looking at this whole thing logically - maybe that's
my error).
Post by John Riggs
Well there is that. but I'm sure it's bogus. It's Casey.
Post by Bill in Co.
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a
domestic violence restraining order against me and wants full custody
of our son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems
that I've known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've
been working with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just
totally evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
My thoughts are with you and your son...
Lori Mc
It doesn't seem to make any sense, but maybe we don't know enough?
Rambler
2004-10-18 02:38:07 UTC
Permalink
<more snippage of Bill's stupidity>.
I'll keep going on a limb. Bullshit. Bogus injunctions happen all the
time. HAven't you read *anything at all* in here or elsewhere.

And please, don't try and say you are looking at things logically. You
are looking at them simplistically.

Twit.

Rambler
Karen in MN
2004-10-17 14:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill in Co.
I guess I don't get it. How can someone order up and serve a bogus
restraining order, if the whole thing is just vaporware? It would never
get off the ground. (Looking at this whole thing logically - maybe that's
my error).
It happens a lot. I have a brother went through that crap for awhile with a
vindictive ex who just wasn't ready to break up -- the charges were
completely bogus, but she still made him cough up the money to defend
himself, not to mention the wages lost for time off work for the court
battles, plus all the emotional turmoil with him and his son. Some people
are just plain mean, and will go to unbelievable lengths to create hurt or
nuisance to the other people as revenge.

Hang in there Casey, my thoughts are with you.
YooperBoyka
2004-10-17 15:14:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Post by Bill in Co.
I guess I don't get it. How can someone order up and serve a bogus
restraining order, if the whole thing is just vaporware? It would never
get off the ground. (Looking at this whole thing logically - maybe
that's
Post by Bill in Co.
my error).
It happens a lot. I have a brother went through that crap for awhile with a
vindictive ex who just wasn't ready to break up -- the charges were
completely bogus, but she still made him cough up the money to defend
himself, not to mention the wages lost for time off work for the court
battles, plus all the emotional turmoil with him and his son. Some people
are just plain mean, and will go to unbelievable lengths to create hurt or
nuisance to the other people as revenge.
Bill knows this.
He's just trying to find a pot to stir.
Nevermind that it's been *how* many years since Casey lived with her?
The same damn thing happened to me.
It's a bullshit allegation, and everyone from Eagle Harbor to
Big Pine Key knows it.
(I won't speak for anyone in Key West. They spend too much
time starin' at the sun.)
Bill in Co.
2004-10-17 17:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen in MN
Post by Bill in Co.
I guess I don't get it. How can someone order up and serve a bogus
restraining order, if the whole thing is just vaporware? It would never
get off the ground. (Looking at this whole thing logically - maybe that's
my error).
It happens a lot. I have a brother went through that crap for awhile with a
vindictive ex who just wasn't ready to break up -- the charges were
completely bogus, but she still made him cough up the money to defend
himself, not to mention the wages lost for time off work for the court
battles, plus all the emotional turmoil with him and his son.
I still find it incredulous. I guess by now I shouldn't, though.
Post by Karen in MN
Some people
are just plain mean, and will go to unbelievable lengths to create hurt or
nuisance to the other people as revenge.
Hang in there Casey, my thoughts are with you.
John Riggs
2004-10-18 07:05:26 UTC
Permalink
....and people called me naive. Bill, most of the restraining orders are
bogus.
Post by Bill in Co.
I guess I don't get it. How can someone order up and serve a bogus
restraining order, if the whole thing is just vaporware? It would never
get off the ground. (Looking at this whole thing logically - maybe that's
my error).
Post by John Riggs
Well there is that. but I'm sure it's bogus. It's Casey.
Post by Bill in Co.
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a
domestic violence restraining order against me and wants full custody
of our son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems
that I've known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've
been working with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just
totally evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
My thoughts are with you and your son...
Lori Mc
It doesn't seem to make any sense, but maybe we don't know enough?
Casey
2004-10-18 14:24:17 UTC
Permalink
John Riggs said ...
"Bill in Co." wrote in message
Post by Bill in Co.
Bill said.
Post by Bill in Co.
It doesn't seem to make any sense, but maybe we don't know enough?
Well there is that. but I'm sure it's bogus. It's Casey.
I guess I don't get it. How can someone order up and serve a bogus
restraining order, if the whole thing is just vaporware? It would never
get off the ground. (Looking at this whole thing logically - maybe
that's my error).
Who said it would get off the ground??
....and people called me naive. Bill, most of the restraining orders are
bogus.
Anyone here can stroll into the Clerk's office and fill out a petition
for such a thing even if it's a complete waste of a judge's time. I
can fill one out saying that an ex g/f is sending Martians to abduct me
every night and that she stole my tin foil hat I was using for self-
defense.

If there's any apparently validity, a temporary injunction will be
granted until the hearing. That was appropriately denied ... but I
still have to go the damn hearing so it can be dismissed.




Casey
Rambler
2004-10-18 14:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
Anyone here can stroll into the Clerk's office and fill out a petition
for such a thing even if it's a complete waste of a judge's time. I
can fill one out saying that an ex g/f is sending Martians to abduct me
every night and that she stole my tin foil hat I was using for self-
defense.
Were we dating the same woman or what?

Rambler
YooperBoyka
2004-10-18 15:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
John Riggs said ...
"Bill in Co." wrote in message
Post by Bill in Co.
Bill said.
Post by Bill in Co.
It doesn't seem to make any sense, but maybe we don't know enough?
Well there is that. but I'm sure it's bogus. It's Casey.
I guess I don't get it. How can someone order up and serve a bogus
restraining order, if the whole thing is just vaporware? It would never
get off the ground. (Looking at this whole thing logically - maybe
that's my error).
Who said it would get off the ground??
....and people called me naive. Bill, most of the restraining orders are
bogus.
Anyone here can stroll into the Clerk's office and fill out a petition
for such a thing even if it's a complete waste of a judge's time. I
can fill one out saying that an ex g/f is sending Martians to abduct me
every night and that she stole my tin foil hat I was using for self-
defense.
If there's any apparently validity, a temporary injunction will be
granted until the hearing. That was appropriately denied ... but I
still have to go the damn hearing so it can be dismissed.
Nevermind that most of these are filed "Ex Parte".
You don't even get notified that they're holding a hearing
even if it *does* pass some vague litmus test.
Rambler
2004-10-18 02:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by LoriMc
Post by Casey
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a
domestic violence restraining order against me and wants full custody
of our son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems
that I've known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've
been working with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just
totally evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
My thoughts are with you and your son...
Lori Mc
<snip Bill's stupidity>
Come on Bill, piss off. Here you've got a guy who's been around here
for a good long while, giving out good solid advice, and he gets slapped
with something like this (most probably out of the blue) and you take a
swipe at him. Knowing that Casey has you blocked, I snipped your
comments but that is probably the most assholish thing I have seen you
post in my two years here.


Rambler
YooperBoyka
2004-10-17 06:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
rambler said ...
Post by rambler
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Sorry to hear Casey, but it might be seasonal.
I, on the other hand, am joining the JayCeeLee's and not dealing with
women again. Going to mean a hefty bar tab, but somebody's got to do it.
First two rounds (and the next 20) are on me ... I may withdraw myself.
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a domestic
violence restraining order against me and wants full custody of our
son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems that I've
known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've been working
with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just totally
evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
Look,...you know there's no way in hell anyone is gonna take this serious.
Right?
Roger B.
2004-10-17 12:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by YooperBoyka
Casey: My son's now being dragged into a completely
humiliating situation for him. And it seems that I'm a danger
to my dog as well.
Look,...you know there's no way in hell anyone is gonna take
this serious. Right?
Casey, check out the petition that she filed with the Clerk. It
may contain specifics that you can easily refute. I wonder why
she waited till now to pull this stunt. Its a little late in the game,
isn't it?

Unfortunately, Judges, who know nothing about the parties,
take it seriously, 'cuz if they don't, they'll have half-a-dozen
advocacy groups crawling their hide. In Florida, judges are
elected. Sometimes there's three parties in the courtroom --
the petitioner, respondent and politics. [R]

.
John Riggs
2004-10-18 07:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Well, I found a site with a listing of the clerks offices.
http://www.flclerks.com/Clerk_webs.htm Casey can look and see if there is
something there he needs to complain about. I know of several companies that
check here on receipt of every application. If your name is on the list,
they're done talkin'. Hopefully Casey won't find himself listed there, but
it was in my case.
Post by Roger B.
Post by YooperBoyka
Casey: My son's now being dragged into a completely
humiliating situation for him. And it seems that I'm a danger
to my dog as well.
Look,...you know there's no way in hell anyone is gonna take
this serious. Right?
Casey, check out the petition that she filed with the Clerk. It
may contain specifics that you can easily refute. I wonder why
she waited till now to pull this stunt. Its a little late in the game,
isn't it?
Unfortunately, Judges, who know nothing about the parties,
take it seriously, 'cuz if they don't, they'll have half-a-dozen
advocacy groups crawling their hide. In Florida, judges are
elected. Sometimes there's three parties in the courtroom --
the petitioner, respondent and politics. [R]
.
Rambler
2004-10-18 02:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
rambler said ...
Post by rambler
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Sorry to hear Casey, but it might be seasonal.
I, on the other hand, am joining the JayCeeLee's and not dealing with
women again. Going to mean a hefty bar tab, but somebody's got to do it.
First two rounds (and the next 20) are on me ... I may withdraw myself.
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a domestic
violence restraining order against me and wants full custody of our
son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems that I've
known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've been working
with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just totally
evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
Cheers.
Give me a farking break. I won't say "you've got to be kidding me,
because you ain't, but that is nuts.

Deep breath ... you'll get through it. She's doing this because ... what?

Got (well, kinda sorta) the same thing, save for my ex didn't serve me,
just mentioned the abuse thing in an affidavit. It is a real crushing
blow on one's psyche, knowing nothing like that has ever or could ever
happen, yet there you are with that moniker pinned on you.

Hang tough with your son, perhaps try and get the ex's family involved
in this one, and really watch your p's and q's.

Rambler
Joy
2004-10-17 15:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey
rambler said ...
Post by rambler
Post by Casey
She's a really nice person and I have a ton of respect for her, but
she's also one of the most cautious individuals I've met in a long
time. I'm more of the nothing-risked, nothing-can-be-gained types.
On the other hand, being on my own doesn't exactly suck either.
Sorry to hear Casey, but it might be seasonal.
I, on the other hand, am joining the JayCeeLee's and not dealing with
women again. Going to mean a hefty bar tab, but somebody's got to do it.
First two rounds (and the next 20) are on me ... I may withdraw myself.
Another development tonight - just came home from a visit with the
woman I've been dating. Deputy sheriff showed up minutes after I got
home - served me with an injunction. Seems my ex is seeking a domestic
violence restraining order against me and wants full custody of our
son. She's been having some very serious "health" problems that I've
known about for some time (as in over two years) and I've been working
with her family to try to help, but my sympathy just totally
evaporated.
What a great fucking night this has turned out to be.
My son's now being dragged into a completely humiliating situation for
him. And it seems that I'm a danger to my dog as well.
Does that translate into the alimony is about to run out, so she's going for
child support instead?
The Guy
2004-10-21 04:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Consider becoming a registered nurse, the pay is good, there is a huge
shortage of nurses, it is a very mobile job...you would not believe some
of the perks. My daughter is an RN, CNS and loves her job...but you
need to find the right environment.
--
SteveO
Tock
2004-10-15 03:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Buy a franchise of something.
You get to pick what sort of stuff to mess around with all day long, you get
support from folks who know what's going on, and you create your own rewards
depending on how hard/smart you work.
Plus, you won't get laid off again, unless all your customers fire you.
-Tock
My Own Doppelganger
2004-10-15 03:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Dude, do not f*en give up! Switch gears, but don't ever give up.

I used to do the coding thing too - albeit lite-duty crap {VB, VBS,
JS, SQL, ABAP, and HTML...if you can call that coding} I got into it
after grad school. I was a bean counter who switched careers...

I switched gears again about 5 years ago and got into the Business
Analyst/Project Management thing. Still did some lite duty code, but
I tried to stay away from it and only did it on "fun" projects.

Last year, I totally dived into Project Mangement. The company I was
at outsourced the entire F*en SAP/R3 support group overseas.
Fortunately, I was able to land a contract gig the next week and a
full time gig the following month in Project Management.

I personally believe that PM, IT Ops Mgmt, & Business Analyst type
work are the future of IT. The current company I'm with, outsources
voer 50% of its development work. This is for stuff like Siebel &
.NET crap...

My advice is to take the coding background and knowledge you have and
move it into managing those types of projects. Become the go-between.
One of the biggest challenges our outsourced developers have is...what
I like to call the 3 C's...

- Connectivity: despite their "business centers" overseas we still
have to reboot their US development machines, troubleshoot their VPN
connections, walk them thru our systems

- communications: ever tried to talk to an Indian or Chinese
programmer? I AIN'T being racist! I'm a freakin' Chinese-American
myself and I CANNOT understand these guys!

- customer knowledge: don't know sh*t about the customer's
business...which is crucial for sucessful IT projects.

Oh, BTW...I ain't speaking from the side of my head... I'm the #2 IT
Dude in a VERY well know national company. ;-)

--------
In a cold world you need your friends to keep you warm.
rj
2004-10-15 13:01:30 UTC
Permalink
My Own Doppelganger <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<***@4ax.com>...

(snip)
Post by My Own Doppelganger
- communications: ever tried to talk to an Indian or Chinese
programmer? I AIN'T being racist! I'm a freakin' Chinese-American
myself and I CANNOT understand these guys!
LOL...

I *know* what you mean. I live and work in India right along side a
whole lot of Indians. Been here for three years... and I *still* have
trouble understanding them. Give this place another 50 years, and the
dialect of English spoken here will have completely evolved into
another *new* language.

rj
Joel M. Eichen
2004-10-15 13:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by rj
(snip)
Post by My Own Doppelganger
- communications: ever tried to talk to an Indian or Chinese
programmer? I AIN'T being racist! I'm a freakin' Chinese-American
myself and I CANNOT understand these guys!
LOL...
I *know* what you mean. I live and work in India right along side a
whole lot of Indians. Been here for three years... and I *still* have
trouble understanding them. Give this place another 50 years, and the
dialect of English spoken here will have completely evolved into
another *new* language.
DICTIONARY

Wampum means money.
Post by rj
rj
Rambler
2004-10-15 13:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by rj
(snip)
Post by My Own Doppelganger
- communications: ever tried to talk to an Indian or Chinese
programmer? I AIN'T being racist! I'm a freakin' Chinese-American
myself and I CANNOT understand these guys!
LOL...
I *know* what you mean. I live and work in India right along side a
whole lot of Indians.
Indians in India? Whodathunk!
Post by rj
Been here for three years... and I *still* have
trouble understanding them. Give this place another 50 years, and the
dialect of English spoken here will have completely evolved into
another *new* language.
Lol, that and the "shake the head side to side and it means yes" body
language culture. Beware, Bollywood is about to storm the world.
Speaking of storm, did everybody know he had sex?

Rambler
Casey
2004-10-15 18:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Rambler said ...
Post by Rambler
Lol, that and the "shake the head side to side and it means yes" body
language culture. Beware, Bollywood is about to storm the world.
Speaking of storm, did everybody know he had sex?
I'm not sure the guys on the space station know yet.

On the other hand, maybe they have his coffee cup - not that he cares
at the moment. ;-)


Casey
Laura
2004-10-15 04:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.
Thanks,
Mike
I don't know a darn thing about what you've been doing, but I've explored
career paths myself in the past. The cheapest way to start might be to pick
up a copy of What Color is Your Parachute? Do some vocational analysis. If
you've got the funds to do it, hire a vocational expert to help you
brainstorm areas that you could move easily into that you would enjoy?

Good luck. It isn't easy, but working at something that is rewarding and
that you enjoy is worth making a change.

Laura in CA
eltonfan28
2004-10-15 09:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
I hear you. It looks very dreadful. On a side note, why is the lieing
greedy nerd (a.k.a. Bill Gates) doing the college campus circuit,
encouraging students to major in Computer Science when he's very aware
that there is no future for American Comp Sci majors? (this is not a
rhetorical question. I really want to know what this guy's motive is.)
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.
I'm not sure at this point, but if you find out first, please share
with us. You did leave out one immportant characteristic: something
that cannot be offshored.

I do have a couple of questions. First, when they say that
"programmers" are endangered, who do they mean? People who call
themselves "programmers" can have different job functions in different
environments. I, and others at my company, don't just do coding. We
are often involved in the specs, design, and end-user testing. I
would imagine that would be much more difficult to outsource (of
course, I may be wrong, as I never want to get too comfortable in this
day and age).

What about Database Administrators and Network Administrators? We
don't hear too much about them and how vulnerable they are to
offshoring. I would not mind at all training for one of those
positions, providing I could get placed. Amoung other things, if
those positions are resistant to outsourcing, it would be the best
investment I could make in saving my sanity!
Ron Peterson
2004-10-15 14:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by eltonfan28
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
I hear you. It looks very dreadful. On a side note, why is the lieing
greedy nerd (a.k.a. Bill Gates) doing the college campus circuit,
encouraging students to major in Computer Science when he's very aware
that there is no future for American Comp Sci majors? (this is not a
rhetorical question. I really want to know what this guy's motive is.)
Bill Gates wants to do the right thing, but he can make mistakes.
Post by eltonfan28
I'm not sure at this point, but if you find out first, please share
with us. You did leave out one immportant characteristic: something
that cannot be offshored.
Nursing is a good occupation right now with 3 year degree people doing
well, more education is better.

There is a home building boom right now which will probably continue
until interest rates rise.
Post by eltonfan28
I do have a couple of questions. First, when they say that
"programmers" are endangered, who do they mean? People who call
themselves "programmers" can have different job functions in different
environments. I, and others at my company, don't just do coding. We
are often involved in the specs, design, and end-user testing. I
would imagine that would be much more difficult to outsource (of
course, I may be wrong, as I never want to get too comfortable in this
day and age).
Employers continually try to deskill their workforce by specializing
the work.
Post by eltonfan28
What about Database Administrators and Network Administrators?
Not many of those are needed and they are primarily used at larger
firms.
--
Ron
Rod Speed
2004-10-15 19:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by eltonfan28
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me
over the edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
I hear you. It looks very dreadful. On a side note, why is the lieing
greedy nerd (a.k.a. Bill Gates) doing the college campus circuit,
encouraging students to major in Computer Science when he's very
aware that there is no future for American Comp Sci majors? (this is not
a rhetorical question. I really want to know what this guy's motive is.)
Presumably he doesnt believe the employment situation for programmers
in the US is as bad as the worst of the doom merchants claim it is.

Time will tell if he is right or not.

It remains to be seen how viable major projects are with the programming
done in china or india. And when the cost of the programmers is only a tiny
part of what matters with a major app suite like say Office, it remains to be
seen if its inevitable that it will all get done in somewhere like india etc.

Have a look at how much of the leading edge shareware or
freeware comes out of india or china. Sweet fuck all basically.

That might say something very fundamental about how things will end up.
Post by eltonfan28
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah
blah into something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know
some people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at
it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the
entrepenurial courage, and need health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.
I'm not sure at this point, but if you find out first, please
share with us. You did leave out one immportant
characteristic: something that cannot be offshored.
I do have a couple of questions. First, when they say that
"programmers" are endangered, who do they mean? People who call
themselves "programmers" can have different job functions in different
environments. I, and others at my company, don't just do coding. We
are often involved in the specs, design, and end-user testing. I
would imagine that would be much more difficult to outsource (of
course, I may be wrong, as I never want to get too comfortable in this
day and age).
What about Database Administrators and Network Administrators? We
don't hear too much about them and how vulnerable they are to
offshoring. I would not mind at all training for one of those
positions, providing I could get placed. Amoung other things, if
those positions are resistant to outsourcing, it would be the best
investment I could make in saving my sanity!
PaPaPeng
2004-10-16 07:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Have a look at how much of the leading edge shareware or
freeware comes out of india or china. Sweet fuck all basically.
There is poor prospect for across the board or long term employment
for the army of computer science and engineering grads. The major
apps that lend themselves to implementation in computers have already
been done. Unless someone comes up with a bright new idea. Then there
will be a mad rush but the players will be few. The development will
be fast and furious and once the dust has settled there will be one
giant player left and employment falls again. The work that is being
outsourced from the US is the mundane nuts and bolts stuff better and
cheaper done in India et al. This kind of outsourcing is not the
primary cause for IT worker unemployment.

The prospects for the computer industry outside the US are much
brighter, particularly in India and China. This is because China and
India each have four times the population of the US and her ownership
of computers is still low. These are enormous opportunities for
growth and for IT developers there that US companies cannot touch
since US developers cannot work in the other's native language or have
an insight into their ethnic conventions. There is this humongous
unmet need to emulate and customize established killer applications
for the domestic market and in the country's language. IT developers
in India and China are not (yet) attempting to conquer the
international market. Furthermore the only way these countries can
come up with leading edge applications is to come up with new ideas
that do not duplicate current models. But this is a challenge that
applies to everyone irrespective of nationality.

Back to the basic point. The prospect for the return to the good old
salad days for IT workers in the US and much of the western world
isn't good.
Rod Speed
2004-10-16 10:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaPaPeng
Post by Rod Speed
Have a look at how much of the leading edge shareware or
freeware comes out of india or china. Sweet fuck all basically.
There is poor prospect for across the board or long term employment
for the army of computer science and engineering grads.
We'll see. There have been plenty of doomsayers around before,
and that claim will turn out to be just another one of those.
Post by PaPaPeng
The major apps that lend themselves to implementation
in computers have already been done.
Thats what some claimed before google showed up too.
Post by PaPaPeng
Unless someone comes up with a bright new idea.
Which has always happened. And will again. You watch.
Post by PaPaPeng
Then there will be a mad rush but the players will be few.
Oh yeah ? Didnt happen with ANY of the most recent bright new ideas.
Post by PaPaPeng
The development will be fast and furious and once the dust has
settled there will be one giant player left and employment falls again.
How odd that that never actually happened except in the .com insanity.
Post by PaPaPeng
The work that is being outsourced from the US is the mundane
nuts and bolts stuff better and cheaper done in India et al.
And the real cutting edge stuff NEVER happens in india first.
Post by PaPaPeng
This kind of outsourcing is not the primary
cause for IT worker unemployment.
Yes, the main current problem is the .com insanity imploding.
Post by PaPaPeng
The prospects for the computer industry outside the
US are much brighter, particularly in India and China.
Have fun explaining why the real cutting
edge stuff NEVER happens in or china first.
Post by PaPaPeng
This is because China and India each have four times the
population of the US and her ownership of computers is still low.
Completely irrelevant to new apps, only relevant
to apps in those languages with china. It isnt even
relevant with india, theirs handle english fine.
Post by PaPaPeng
These are enormous opportunities for
growth and for IT developers there
How odd that NONE the real cutting edge
stuff NEVER happens in india or china first.
Post by PaPaPeng
that US companies cannot touch since US developers
cannot work in the other's native language
They dont need to. That mundane stuff of chinese versions
of the major stuff is completely boring mundane crap that
has never mattered a damn to the world IT industrys.
Post by PaPaPeng
or have an insight into their ethnic conventions.
Again, completely irrelevant.
Post by PaPaPeng
There is this humongous unmet need to emulate
and customize established killer applications for
the domestic market and in the country's language.
Nope, everything that matters has that now.
Post by PaPaPeng
IT developers in India and China are not (yet)
attempting to conquer the international market.
And they wont succeed, even if they do attempt that, you watch.
Post by PaPaPeng
Furthermore the only way these countries can come
up with leading edge applications is to come up with
new ideas that do not duplicate current models.
Pity they've never managed it yet. Not once.

Neither did the Japs either.
Post by PaPaPeng
But this is a challenge that applies to
everyone irrespective of nationality.
And its only the first world thats managed to do any of that.
Post by PaPaPeng
Back to the basic point. The prospect for the return
to the good old salad days for IT workers in the US
and much of the western world isn't good.
No one was stupid enough to claim that they would.

What was being discussed was Gates encouraging
some in the US to get IT industry degrees.
PaPaPeng
2004-10-16 18:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Again, completely irrelevant.
As normal for Rod, simplistic and poorly informed. But Aussieland
isn't exactly known for its IT industry.

Anyway, a timely article from
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/techinvestor/industry/2004-10-14-programming-jobs_x.htm

By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.

Not everybody agrees programmers will disappear completely. But even
the optimists believe that many basic programming jobs will go to
foreign nations, leaving behind jobs for Americans to lead and manage
software projects. The evidence is already mounting that many computer
jobs are endangered, prompting concern about the future of the
nation's high-tech industries.

Since the dotcom bust in 2000-2001, nearly a quarter of California
technology workers have taken nontech jobs, according to a study of 1
million workers released last week by Sphere Institute, a San
Francisco Bay Area public policy group. The jobs they took often paid
less. Software workers were hit especially hard. Another 28% have
dropped off California's job rolls altogether. They fled the state,
became unemployed, or decided on self-employment.

The problem is not limited to California.

Although computer-related jobs in the United States increased by
27,000 between 2001 and 2003, about 180,000 new foreign H-1B workers
in the computer area entered the nation, calculates John Miano, an
expert with the Programmers Guild, a professional society. "This
suggests any gain of jobs have been taken by H-1B workers," he says.

H-1B visas allow skilled foreigners to live and work in the US for up
to six years. Many are able to get green cards in a first step to
citizenship. Another visa, L-1, allows multinational companies to
transfer workers from foreign operations into the US.

The H-1B visa has been highly controversial for years. This fiscal
year, Congress set a quota of 65,000 visas, which was snapped up
immediately after they became available Oct.1. Now, US business is
pleading for Congress to let in more such workers.

The US Chamber of Commerce, for instance, wants Congress to revisit
the cap "to ensure American business has access to the talent it needs
to help keep our economy strong."

That rationale makes no sense to the Programmers Guild and other
groups that have sprung up to resist the tech visas. Since more than
100,000 American programmers are unemployed — and many more are
underemployed — the existing 65,000 quota is inexcusably high, they
argue. H-1B and L-1 visas are "American worker replacement programs,"
says the National Hire American Citizens Society.

Further, the H-1B program, set up in 1990, is flawed, critics charge.
For example, employers are not required to recruit Americans before
resorting to hiring H-1Bs, says Norman Matloff, a computer science
professor at the University of California, Davis.

And the requirement that employers pay H-1Bs a "prevailing wage" is
useless, he adds, because the law is riddled with loopholes. Nor are
even any remaining regulations enforced.

The average wage for an American programmer runs about $60,000, says
John Bauman, who set up the Organization for the Rights of American
Workers. Employers pay H-1Bs an average $53,000.

A programmer, Mr. Bauman was out of work for 20 months before finally
taking a job with a 40% pay cut. His experience is common enough that
programmers are organizing to fight in Congress against H-1B and L-1
visas.

But they face an uphill battle, says Mr. Miano, as business groups are
far better organized and funded than the smattering of programmer
groups. "They have the best legislation money can buy," he says.

Miano sees such a dim future for programmers that he decided to enter
law school. "I saw the handwriting on the wall," he says.
Rod Speed
2004-10-16 20:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaPaPeng
Post by Rod Speed
Again, completely irrelevant.
As normal for Rod, simplistic and poorly informed.
As normal for Peng, couldnt bullshit its way out of a wet paper
bag even if its pathetic excuse for a 'life' depended on it.
Post by PaPaPeng
But Aussieland isn't exactly known for its IT industry.
And china is ? Yeah, right.

Racist git.

There isnt much software wise thats come out
of anywhere except the US for various reasons.

There are a few examples of something thats a bit unusual like
Ghost, Irfanview, Linux etc that have showed up from outside
the US, but NOT ONE example from India or China or Japan.
Post by PaPaPeng
Anyway, a timely article from
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/techinvestor/industry/2004-10-14-programming-jobs_x.htm
This one was already cited at the start of this thread, stupid.

Do at least TRY to keep up.
Dennis P. Harris
2004-10-15 09:32:44 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:55:39 -0400 in
misc.consumers.frugal-living, "Mike \(Remove X's to reply\)"
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.
I escaped by going to work for one of my clients. I'm now his
second in command, and finally got some use out of all those
business management courses I took on the way to my BBA with an
Information Systems emphasis.

It helps that my job can't be outsourced. There is no way he can
outsource the management of 10 apartment buildings and 3 trailer
courts to India.

So my advice is to find a company that serves local customers in
a business that's local, like construction or property rentals.
Learn about the business model and the business processes.

If it's security you want, take a government programming job.
They don't pay as well as the private sector, but they're having
trouble filling positions. Health insurance and retirement
benefits are usually pretty good.
kathy
2004-10-15 11:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.
Thanks,
Mike
I can relate to this because I'm in a similar predicament (I'm not in
IT BTW). I posted an earlier query about frugally job searching and
received many excellent responses. Franchising might be a good option
for you at this point. I'm hearing from friends who are in the same
situation that are looking into consultant work, contract gigs, etc. I
guess my best advice (and one I'm heavily implementing myself at
present) is networking. Keep your friends and colleagues on the
look-out for positions you might be interested in. I don't know if
you're willing to relocate or not, but even your long-distance
friends, colleagues, high shcool/college buddies, etc, are good spies
o nthe job front. I did not realize that *looking* for a job would
become in itself a full-time job, so be prepared. Best wishes.
Kathy C
shinypenny
2004-10-15 12:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
If you're pretty good at sales but don't want to be in sales, have you
considered marketing? You'd get to create the sales tools and train
the sales people how to sell, without having to get on the road
yourself. High-tech marketing pays awfully well, particularly if one
has a strong technical background. To gain a marketing background, you
don't necessarily have to go back to school, although a few marketing
courses at a local community college would be helpful.

jen
alexy
2004-10-15 14:22:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Mike, it sounds like you have done a serious self-assessment, which is
very smart. Several of the responses you have gotten so far seem to
ignore this self assessment. (Why in the world would someone recommend
buying a franchise to someone who doesn't want the risk of
self-employment? I'd also argue that sales is necessary for success in
consulting unless you are in an organization where someone else sells
your expertise.)
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Nothing specific. But consider what industry or industries you have
worked in, and any knowledge and skills specific to those businesses
or operations that you may have picked up along the way. Looking back,
what were the times when you were interested in what was going on
beyond your part of the project, and wished you knew more?

Good luck.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
Rambler
2004-10-15 15:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Mike, can you give a little more to work on here? I think you were a
coder, but not sure. A little help on the types of projects, what you
did, was it web based or client server, etc. etc. etc?
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Okay, that is a crimper (perhaps) because everybody sells. When you go
for a job interview, you are selling yourself.
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Hmm ... two sides, out of the box and in the box.

You've said nothing entrepreneurial (which would whack consulting - but
I'll throw that in there anyway) and nothing salesee (which I am going
to throw in as well) so it is more of a process oriented thing
(perhaps). Also you have given yourself a time frame of a year, so I
would presume that you might be willing to invest a least some time (not
years of schooling, but something, yes?)

So a little brainstorming ...

Inside the box

- Join the devil, align yourself with an outsourcing company and advise
what clients to go after (or sell to those clients).
- Hired gun project manager
- Technical consultant - basically for places looking to implement
- Become a journalist and write about what you love (no, Penthouse does
not have openings ... though you never know)
- Look into becoming a Six Sigma Black Belt - again, process driven but
out of IT
- Technical analyst for one of the VC firms, providing technical
opinions on the viability of software
- Technical analyst for somebody like The Gartner Group
- Software tester
- Move over to CAD/CAM and become a drafter (okay, a long shot, but this
is brainstorming).
- Go into Private Banking, and sell technical instruments to a technical
clientele (okay, so that's got sales in it)
- Look at working for a non-profit, one of the Development Agencies.
Got a friend that is trying to do the same thing. Pay can be okay,
benefits are usually pretty good, and it is rewarding.
- Spend some time putting together a technical plan to help a
constituency, sell it (yes, sales again) to somebody who would fund it,
then build and run. Say a network for homeless shelters.
- Become a technical document writer. Same thing as coding, but you'd
need to also learn how to write for end users.
- Look at joining one of the large consultancy firms (Is Arthur Anderson
still around, or Bearing Point, or the company that AMS got swallowed up
by) and become the guy that goes in and writes a technical spec for a
client. That ain't being outsourced, because you have to sit with the
client, and your skills of understanding the programmers might leverage
that well.
- Become a clown, keeping multiple balls up in the air (brainstorming,
people, brainstorming - don't knock a silly idea, run with it and see if
you can make it better
- Change Management seminars (see the thing above)
- Big thing I hear from Macromedia is "content management" (in its broad
sense, not as a web development tool). Looks like that is the 00's thingy.
- Work for the Department of Homeland Security
- Become an analyst at the NSA (not computers, but data)
- How's your math? Any PhD stuff. Go work as a program trader in a bank
- Pick avocados in California in the winter ( a), don't know if avocado
picking season is in the winter, and b) not sure that there is any
health benefits there.
- Contact Match.com (and the other I love You sites) and see if there
are technical positions there (combine your fondness for women and
technology all in one.
- Google and Yahoo are hiring

You got me. Those were actually inside and outside of the box
brainstorming ideas. But you got a page worth. Want clarification on
any of them, let me know. Would be better if you posted a bit more of
what you've done, but I have taken what I believe your skill set would
be as a programmer and tried to extrapolate from there.

Rambler
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible predicament
could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to escape.
Thanks,
Mike
--
YooperBoyka
2004-10-15 17:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rambler
- Move over to CAD/CAM and become a drafter (okay, a long shot, but this
is brainstorming).
Actually,...there's a helluva lot more to this than one would think at first
blush.
Lotsa big (and small) manufacturing firms are having *fits* trying to
incorporate
*usable* (operative word, here) processes into their manufacturing systems.
The field seems wide open to me. (...and rather huge, I might add)
Unigraphics is just beginning to scratch the surface of what is needed.
Rambler
2004-10-16 02:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by YooperBoyka
Post by Rambler
- Move over to CAD/CAM and become a drafter (okay, a long shot, but this
is brainstorming).
Actually,...there's a helluva lot more to this than one would think at first
blush.
Lotsa big (and small) manufacturing firms are having *fits* trying to
incorporate
*usable* (operative word, here) processes into their manufacturing systems.
The field seems wide open to me. (...and rather huge, I might add)
Unigraphics is just beginning to scratch the surface of what is needed.
And a great demonstration of a good brainstorming session. Somebody
throws something up on the wall that may be out there, and somebody else
comes in to refine and advance the suggestion.

Now you've got a whole other line to look at.

Rambler
Larisa
2004-10-21 06:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by YooperBoyka
Post by Rambler
- Move over to CAD/CAM and become a drafter (okay, a long shot, but this
is brainstorming).
Actually,...there's a helluva lot more to this than one would think at first
blush.
Lotsa big (and small) manufacturing firms are having *fits* trying to
incorporate
*usable* (operative word, here) processes into their manufacturing systems.
The field seems wide open to me. (...and rather huge, I might add)
Unigraphics is just beginning to scratch the surface of what is needed.
Oh? Can you recommend a company to hire oneself out to? I'm fairly
good at ProE and SolidWorks.

LM
YooperBoyka
2004-10-22 17:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larisa
Post by YooperBoyka
Post by Rambler
- Move over to CAD/CAM and become a drafter (okay, a long shot, but this
is brainstorming).
Actually,...there's a helluva lot more to this than one would think at first
blush.
Lotsa big (and small) manufacturing firms are having *fits* trying to
incorporate
*usable* (operative word, here) processes into their manufacturing systems.
The field seems wide open to me. (...and rather huge, I might add)
Unigraphics is just beginning to scratch the surface of what is needed.
Oh? Can you recommend a company to hire oneself out to? I'm fairly
good at ProE and SolidWorks.
I wish I could,...but no, I can't.
I'm working for GM in an "end user" capacity, and the kinds of
things we're struggling over are, I have to guess, pretty much
universal.
...they *are* planning to bid out all their IT work in about a year or
so, though.
Who knows?

Casey
2004-10-15 18:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Rambler said ...
Post by Rambler
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
So a little brainstorming ...
Inside the box
Whoa dude, the following ones are "inside the box"??
Post by Rambler
- Become a clown, keeping multiple balls up in the air (brainstorming,
people, brainstorming - don't knock a silly idea, run with it and see if
you can make it better
- Pick avocados in California in the winter ( a), don't know if avocado
picking season is in the winter, and b) not sure that there is any
health benefits there.
Well, are avocado's healthy?
Post by Rambler
- Contact Match.com (and the other I love You sites) and see if there
are technical positions there (combine your fondness for women and
technology all in one.
Something about this one appeals to me ...
Post by Rambler
You got me. Those were actually inside and outside of the box
brainstorming ideas.
Okay ... as long as you acknowledge the "outside of the box" stuff.

As far as we're kicking around the more unusual ideas, here's one that
I might find interesting - marriage counselor. I can see it now:

"Casey - Marriage Counselor Extraordinare"

Damn ... I guess I'd have to put "twice divorced" in the fine print
somewhere. Probably have to go to school or something as well.

Society is just going to hell and killing the entreprenuial spirit ....



Casey
Daven Thrice
2004-10-15 23:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
I'm self employed in the IT industry & have been for many years. Let me tell
you, the market sucks. Things are tough. Everyone and their brother becomes
"a consultant" when they lose their job. And, for sure, it ain't hard to
find a programmer or a hardware guy. You can't even find a job doing
embedded stuff, which is harder to do and requires a lot of special skills.

My recommendation to you is to take an aptitude test in order to see what
you like and what you're good at, and go from there. These tests are offered
on-line, I imagine you should google something down. You should also get in
touch with the counselors office at your local community college. A lot of
them have a program where they offer aptitude tests together with one or two
nights of career counseling. And hell, don't worry about your age, there are
a _lot_ of highly experienced IT guys taking those things right now,
especially in the evening.

Good Luck!
Casey
2004-10-16 05:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Daven Thrice said ...
Post by Daven Thrice
I'm self employed in the IT industry & have been for many years. Let me tell
you, the market sucks. Things are tough. Everyone and their brother becomes
"a consultant" when they lose their job. And, for sure, it ain't hard to
find a programmer or a hardware guy. You can't even find a job doing
embedded stuff, which is harder to do and requires a lot of special skills.
Tell me about it - I've done the embedded stuff for over 17 years.
Unfortunately, the applications I work on are for the telecom market.

I have some friends who are highly specialized. Last year, one of them
was writing articles for a 4 wheel drive truck magazine and the other
got into a multilevel marketing operation. I was lucky to scrape
together enough work to come up with about 1/6 of my normal last year.

This year has been tremendously better. I've been extremely busy since
February. I just finished that project a few days ago and have been
wondering, "what now?". Got a phone call today which may lead to a new
project starting very soon. Never hurts to be lucky.


Casey
Ed Spain
2004-10-16 02:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mike,
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and need
health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Well, my idea is a bit entrepenurial, but here goes. Due to a bad
slowdown in my main geographical area of contacts (Munich), my business
went from overheated to full stop in no time a couple of years ago. I
dabbled in EVERYTHING to stay alive. Then, while trying to win one
contract, became an expert in one e-commerce package (there are a LOT of
them out there - email me if you want a list). I labeled myself an
expert, worked the public forum helping out everyone, and the work has
been pouring in from that. Customers are usually businesses who
desparatly need IT help, but don't have it, or don't have good IT help,
and the work has spilled out of the straight e commerce work into all IT
jobs needed by all my clients. I'm again looking for programmers, and
may even ship some work to India ;-> Ride the wave, buddy ;->

HTH,
Ed
Dadzilla
2004-10-16 06:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Could it be your overlooking areas not commonly thought of as
computer?

Most new automotive repair systems are computer driven. The wheel
alingment from Bear or Hunter is a computer system. The engine system
check from Sun or Bear is computers again. Someone writes that code,
someone updates the data bases each year as the new cars come out.
Someone writes the new testing code as the systems evolve.

Any major shipyard and the freighter ships themselves are a maze of
computers.
Tool makers are all moving to CNC, manufacturers ar allready there.

Computer control, robotics... not as large leap as you might think,
PPL has the look of your old fasioned basic, VB for the newest
equipment.

Just a thought... Good Luck.
John Riggs
2004-10-16 09:08:50 UTC
Permalink
We have a shop here that does nothing more than make new chips and tweak
the car's computer to gain the most HP....and the guy is pretty generous
with his money when he needs work done on his systems.
Computers, robotics, electronics, ad nauseum.....hazards of being a
tech, but I wouldn't have it any other way.
Post by Dadzilla
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over the
edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah into
something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know some
people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty good at it).
Could it be your overlooking areas not commonly thought of as
computer?
Most new automotive repair systems are computer driven. The wheel
alingment from Bear or Hunter is a computer system. The engine system
check from Sun or Bear is computers again. Someone writes that code,
someone updates the data bases each year as the new cars come out.
Someone writes the new testing code as the systems evolve.
Any major shipyard and the freighter ships themselves are a maze of
computers.
Tool makers are all moving to CNC, manufacturers ar allready there.
Computer control, robotics... not as large leap as you might think,
PPL has the look of your old fasioned basic, VB for the newest
equipment.
Just a thought... Good Luck.
Flavius Vespasianus
2004-10-19 23:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike (Remove X's to reply)
That last Christian Science Monitor article
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1014/p17s01-coop.html) pushed me over
the edge... I want out of IT. No point in living in denial any
longer.
How do I leverage my skills, experience, education, blah blah blah
into something rewarding, profitable, and honorable.
Something that would be a good corporate gig and not be sales. I know
some people like sales, but I can't stand it (even though I'm pretty
good at it).
Not self-employment... just don't have the entrepenurial courage, and
need health insurance.
Something that wouldn't take years of schooling.
Something I could leverage myself into now or within a year or so.
Any thoughts, ideas?
Obviously this wouldn't just help me, all of us in this terrible
predicament could benefit by the experiences and advice on how to
escape.
I took the LSAT, got a rip-roarin' score and had law schools banging at
my door. If you're good at standardized tests,that's a way to go.
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