Discussion:
Airlines to offer standing-room-only "seats"
(too old to reply)
s***@yahoo.com
2006-04-25 15:17:22 UTC
Permalink
New York Times
April 25, 2006
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT

The airlines have come up with a new answer to an old question: How
many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?

A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early
stage should catch on: standing-room-only "seats."

Airbus has been quietly pitching the standing-room-only option to Asian
carriers, though none have agreed to it yet. Passengers in the standing
section would be propped against a padded backboard, held in place with
a harness, according to experts who have seen a proposal.

But even short of that option, carriers have been slipping another row
or two of seats into coach by exploiting stronger, lighter materials
developed by seat manufacturers that allow for slimmer seatbacks. The
thinner seats theoretically could be used to give passengers more
legroom but, in practice, the airlines have been keeping the amount of
space between rows the same, to accommodate additional rows.

The result is an additional 6 seats on a typical Boeing 737, for a
total of 156, and as many as 12 new seats on a Boeing 757, for a total
of 200.

That such things are even being considered is a result of several
factors. High fuel costs, for example, are making it difficult for
carriers to turn a profit. The new seat technology alone, when used to
add more places for passengers, can add millions in additional annual
revenue. The new designs also reduce a seat's weight by up to 15
pounds, helping to hold down fuel consumption. A typical seat in
economy class now weighs 74 to 82 pounds.

"There is clearly pressure on carriers to make the total passenger
count as efficient as possible," said Howard Guy, a director for Design
Q, a seating design consultant in England. "After all, the fewer seats
that are put on board, the more expensive the seat price becomes. It's
basic math."

Even as the airlines are slimming the seatbacks in coach, they are
installing seats as thick and heavy as ever in first and business class
- and going to great lengths to promote them. That is because each
passenger in such a seat can generate several times the revenue of a
coach traveler.

At the front of the cabin, the emphasis is on comfort and amenities
like sophisticated entertainment systems. Some of the new seats even
feature in-seat electronic massagers. And, of course, the airlines have
installed lie-flat seats for their premium passengers on international
routes.

Seating specialists say that all the publicity airlines devote to their
premium seats diverts attention from what is happening in the back of
the plane. In the main cabin, they say, manufacturers are under intense
pressure to create more efficient seats.

"We make the seats thinner," said Alexander Pozzi, the director for
research and development at Weber Aircraft, a seat manufacturer in
Gainesville, Tex. "The airlines keep pitching them closer and closer
together. We just try to make them as comfortable as we can."

There is one bit of good news in the thinner seats for coach class:
They offer slightly more room between the armrests because the
electronics are being moved to the seatbacks.

One of the first to use the thinner seats in coach was American
Airlines, which refitted its economy-class section seven years ago with
an early version made by the German manufacturer Recaro.

"Those seats were indeed thinner than the ones they replaced, allowing
more knee and legroom," Tim Smith, a spokesman for American, said.
American actually removed two rows in coach, adding about two inches of
legroom, when it installed the new seats. It promoted the change with a
campaign called "More Room Throughout Coach."

But two years later, to cut costs, American slid the seats closer
together and ended its "More Room" program without fanfare. When the
changes were completed last year, American said its "density
modification program" had added five more seats to the economy-class
section of its MD-80 narrow-body aircraft and brought the total seat
count to 120 in the back of the plane. A document on an internal
American Airlines Web site, which was briefly accessible to the public
last week, estimated that the program would generate an additional $60
million a year for its MD-80 fleet.

United Airlines has also used the earlier-generation thin seats. But it
held open the possibility that once its current seat stock needs to be
replaced, it might try to squeeze in more seats. "We're always looking
at options," Brandon Borrman, a spokesman, said.

Airlines can only do so much with their existing fleets to save space.
The real opportunities, say seat manufacturers and design experts, are
with the new generation of aircraft that are coming soon.

"People hear about these new planes, and they have bowling alleys and
barber shops," Michael B. Baughan, the president and chief operating
officer of B/E Aerospace, a manufacturer of aircraft cabin interiors in
Wellington, Fla., said with a bit of exaggeration. "But that's not how
planes are delivered. On a real airline, with real routes, you have to
be economically viable."

Perhaps the most extraordinary example of a new jet that could
accommodate features unheard of previously is the Airbus A380. There is
so much available room on the superjumbo that Virgin Atlantic Airways
is even considering placing a beauty salon in its premium-class
section. (No final decision has been made, according to the company.)
The first A380 is scheduled to be delivered later this year.

With a typical configuration, the A380 will accommodate about 500
passengers. But with standing-room-only seats, the same plane could
conceivably fit in 853 passengers, the maximum it would be permitted to
carry.

"To call it a seat would be misleading," said Volker Mellert, a physics
professor at Oldenburg University in Germany, who has done research on
airline seat comfort and has seen the design. If such a configuration
were ever installed on an aircraft, he said, it would only be used on
short-haul flights like an island-hopping route in Japan.

While an Airbus spokeswoman, Mary Anne Greczyn, played down the idea
that Airbus was trying to sell an aircraft that accommodated 853
passengers, the company would not specifically comment on the
upright-seating proposal.

There is no legal barrier to installing standing-room seats on an
American airliner. The Federal Aviation Administration does not mandate
that a passenger be in a sitting position for takeoffs and landings;
only that the passenger be secured. Seating must comply only with the
agency's rules on the width of aisles and the ability to evacuate
quickly in an emergency.

The Air Transport Association, the trade association for the airline
industry in the United States, does not have any seat-comfort
standards. Nor does it issue any recommendations to its members
regarding seating configurations.

The two Asian airlines seen as the most likely to buy a large plane for
short-haul flights, All Nippon Airways and Japan Airlines, are lukewarm
about the Airbus plan.

"Airbus had talked with us about an 800-seat configuration for domestic
flights," said Rob Henderson, a spokesman for All Nippon Airways. "It
does not fit with our present plans going forward."

A spokesman for Japan Airlines, Geoffrey Tudor, said Airbus had
presented its ideas for using the A380 on short-haul flights, but
added, "We have no interest in increasing seat capacity to this level."

Boeing is under similar pressure to squeeze more seats onto its newest
aircraft, the midsize Boeing 787. Some airlines are planning to space
the seats just 30 inches apart from front to back, or about one inch
less than the current average.

And rather than installing eight seats across the two aisles, which
would afford passengers additional elbow room, more than half of
Boeing's airline customers have opted for a nine-abreast configuration
in the main cabin, said Blake Emery, a marketing director at Boeing.
Even so, he said, "It will still be as comfortable as any economy-class
section today."

Indeed, it is possible to have it both ways: more comfortable seats
that are also more compact. For example, the latest economy-class seat
from B/E Aerospace, called the ICON, allows the seat bottom to move
forward when the seat is reclined, so that it does not steal legroom
from the passenger behind it. It also incorporates better ergonomic
designs now typically found in the business-class cabin.

But the ICON and similar seats can cost up to three times more than the
$1,200 that a standard coach seat costs. That may make them
unaffordable to all but a few international airlines that would use the
seats on long-haul routes, the experts said.

Some frequent fliers, asked about the slimmer seats, said they feared
that the result would be tighter quarters. Some expressed concerns
about sharing a cabin with even more passengers and increasing the risk
of contracting a communicable disease.

Others were worried about even more passengers sharing the
already-tight overhead bin space.

"It seems like every year there is less room for my long legs," said
Bud Johnson, who is a frequent traveler for a military contractor in
Scottsdale, Ariz. "I'm afraid that's going to continue."
Rod Speed
2006-04-25 19:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
Should have been April 1 with the first part.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
How many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early
stage should catch on: standing-room-only "seats."
Airbus has been quietly pitching the standing-room-only option to
Asian carriers, though none have agreed to it yet. Passengers in the
standing section would be propped against a padded backboard, held
in place with a harness, according to experts who have seen a proposal.
Dont believe it. Someone has been pulling your leg.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
But even short of that option, carriers have been slipping another row
or two of seats into coach by exploiting stronger, lighter materials
developed by seat manufacturers that allow for slimmer seatbacks.
The thinner seats theoretically could be used to give passengers more
legroom but, in practice, the airlines have been keeping the amount of
space between rows the same, to accommodate additional rows.
The result is an additional 6 seats on a typical Boeing 737, for a
total of 156, and as many as 12 new seats on a Boeing 757, for a total
of 200.
That such things are even being considered is a result of several
factors. High fuel costs, for example, are making it difficult for
carriers to turn a profit. The new seat technology alone, when used to
add more places for passengers, can add millions in additional annual
revenue. The new designs also reduce a seat's weight by up to 15
pounds, helping to hold down fuel consumption. A typical seat in
economy class now weighs 74 to 82 pounds.
"There is clearly pressure on carriers to make the total passenger
count as efficient as possible," said Howard Guy, a director for
Design Q, a seating design consultant in England. "After all, the
fewer seats that are put on board, the more expensive the seat price
becomes. It's basic math."
Even as the airlines are slimming the seatbacks in coach, they are
installing seats as thick and heavy as ever in first and business
class - and going to great lengths to promote them. That is because
each passenger in such a seat can generate several times the revenue
of a coach traveler.
At the front of the cabin, the emphasis is on comfort and amenities
like sophisticated entertainment systems. Some of the new seats even
feature in-seat electronic massagers. And, of course, the airlines
have installed lie-flat seats for their premium passengers on
international routes.
Seating specialists say that all the publicity airlines devote to
their premium seats diverts attention from what is happening in the
back of the plane. In the main cabin, they say, manufacturers are
under intense pressure to create more efficient seats.
"We make the seats thinner," said Alexander Pozzi, the director for
research and development at Weber Aircraft, a seat manufacturer in
Gainesville, Tex. "The airlines keep pitching them closer and closer
together. We just try to make them as comfortable as we can."
They offer slightly more room between the armrests because the
electronics are being moved to the seatbacks.
One of the first to use the thinner seats in coach was American
Airlines, which refitted its economy-class section seven years ago
with an early version made by the German manufacturer Recaro.
"Those seats were indeed thinner than the ones they replaced, allowing
more knee and legroom," Tim Smith, a spokesman for American, said.
American actually removed two rows in coach, adding about two inches
of legroom, when it installed the new seats. It promoted the change
with a campaign called "More Room Throughout Coach."
But two years later, to cut costs, American slid the seats closer
together and ended its "More Room" program without fanfare. When the
changes were completed last year, American said its "density
modification program" had added five more seats to the economy-class
section of its MD-80 narrow-body aircraft and brought the total seat
count to 120 in the back of the plane. A document on an internal
American Airlines Web site, which was briefly accessible to the public
last week, estimated that the program would generate an additional $60
million a year for its MD-80 fleet.
United Airlines has also used the earlier-generation thin seats. But
it held open the possibility that once its current seat stock needs
to be replaced, it might try to squeeze in more seats. "We're always
looking at options," Brandon Borrman, a spokesman, said.
Airlines can only do so much with their existing fleets to save space.
The real opportunities, say seat manufacturers and design experts, are
with the new generation of aircraft that are coming soon.
"People hear about these new planes, and they have bowling alleys and
barber shops," Michael B. Baughan, the president and chief operating
officer of B/E Aerospace, a manufacturer of aircraft cabin interiors
in Wellington, Fla., said with a bit of exaggeration. "But that's not
how planes are delivered. On a real airline, with real routes, you
have to be economically viable."
Perhaps the most extraordinary example of a new jet that could
accommodate features unheard of previously is the Airbus A380. There
is so much available room on the superjumbo that Virgin Atlantic
Airways is even considering placing a beauty salon in its
premium-class section. (No final decision has been made, according to
the company.) The first A380 is scheduled to be delivered later this
year.
With a typical configuration, the A380 will accommodate about 500
passengers. But with standing-room-only seats, the same plane could
conceivably fit in 853 passengers, the maximum it would be permitted
to carry.
"To call it a seat would be misleading," said Volker Mellert, a
physics professor at Oldenburg University in Germany, who has done
research on airline seat comfort and has seen the design. If such a
configuration were ever installed on an aircraft, he said, it would
only be used on short-haul flights like an island-hopping route in
Japan.
While an Airbus spokeswoman, Mary Anne Greczyn, played down the idea
that Airbus was trying to sell an aircraft that accommodated 853
passengers, the company would not specifically comment on the
upright-seating proposal.
There is no legal barrier to installing standing-room seats on an
American airliner. The Federal Aviation Administration does not
mandate that a passenger be in a sitting position for takeoffs and
landings; only that the passenger be secured. Seating must comply
only with the agency's rules on the width of aisles and the ability
to evacuate quickly in an emergency.
The Air Transport Association, the trade association for the airline
industry in the United States, does not have any seat-comfort
standards. Nor does it issue any recommendations to its members
regarding seating configurations.
The two Asian airlines seen as the most likely to buy a large plane
for short-haul flights, All Nippon Airways and Japan Airlines, are
lukewarm about the Airbus plan.
"Airbus had talked with us about an 800-seat configuration for
domestic flights," said Rob Henderson, a spokesman for All Nippon
Airways. "It does not fit with our present plans going forward."
A spokesman for Japan Airlines, Geoffrey Tudor, said Airbus had
presented its ideas for using the A380 on short-haul flights, but
added, "We have no interest in increasing seat capacity to this level."
Boeing is under similar pressure to squeeze more seats onto its newest
aircraft, the midsize Boeing 787. Some airlines are planning to space
the seats just 30 inches apart from front to back, or about one inch
less than the current average.
And rather than installing eight seats across the two aisles, which
would afford passengers additional elbow room, more than half of
Boeing's airline customers have opted for a nine-abreast configuration
in the main cabin, said Blake Emery, a marketing director at Boeing.
Even so, he said, "It will still be as comfortable as any
economy-class section today."
Indeed, it is possible to have it both ways: more comfortable seats
that are also more compact. For example, the latest economy-class seat
from B/E Aerospace, called the ICON, allows the seat bottom to move
forward when the seat is reclined, so that it does not steal legroom
from the passenger behind it. It also incorporates better ergonomic
designs now typically found in the business-class cabin.
But the ICON and similar seats can cost up to three times more than
the $1,200 that a standard coach seat costs. That may make them
unaffordable to all but a few international airlines that would use
the seats on long-haul routes, the experts said.
Some frequent fliers, asked about the slimmer seats, said they feared
that the result would be tighter quarters. Some expressed concerns
about sharing a cabin with even more passengers and increasing the
risk of contracting a communicable disease.
Others were worried about even more passengers sharing the
already-tight overhead bin space.
"It seems like every year there is less room for my long legs," said
Bud Johnson, who is a frequent traveler for a military contractor in
Scottsdale, Ariz. "I'm afraid that's going to continue."
D***@gmail.com
2006-04-25 20:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
Should have been April 1 with the first part.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
How many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early
stage should catch on: standing-room-only "seats."
Airbus has been quietly pitching the standing-room-only option to
Asian carriers, though none have agreed to it yet. Passengers in the
standing section would be propped against a padded backboard, held
in place with a harness, according to experts who have seen a proposal.
Dont believe it. Someone has been pulling your leg.
It's a true story, asswhipe.

Do some research instead of surfing for porn.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/25seats.html?_r=1&oref=slogin>
Wordsmith
2006-04-25 20:54:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Rod Speed
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
Should have been April 1 with the first part.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
How many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early
stage should catch on: standing-room-only "seats."
Airbus has been quietly pitching the standing-room-only option to
Asian carriers, though none have agreed to it yet. Passengers in the
standing section would be propped against a padded backboard, held
in place with a harness, according to experts who have seen a proposal.
Dont believe it. Someone has been pulling your leg.
It's a true story, asswhipe.
Do some research instead of surfing for porn.
<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/25seats.html?_r=1&oref=slogin>
Hey, don't question Rod. He's God, you know. Thinks he is anyway.

W : )
Rod Speed
2006-04-25 21:26:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Rod Speed
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
Should have been April 1 with the first part.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
How many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early
stage should catch on: standing-room-only "seats."
Airbus has been quietly pitching the standing-room-only option to
Asian carriers, though none have agreed to it yet. Passengers in the
standing section would be propped against a padded backboard, held
in place with a harness, according to experts who have seen a proposal.
Dont believe it. Someone has been pulling your leg.
It's a true story, asswhipe.
Dont believe it, fuckwit child.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Do some research instead of surfing for porn.
<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/25seats.html?_r=1&oref=slogin>
Thats not research, thats just another stupid journo so
stupid that it didnt even notice its leg was getting pulled.
William Souden
2006-04-26 01:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Rod Speed
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
Should have been April 1 with the first part.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
How many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early
stage should catch on: standing-room-only "seats."
Airbus has been quietly pitching the standing-room-only option to
Asian carriers, though none have agreed to it yet. Passengers in the
standing section would be propped against a padded backboard, held
in place with a harness, according to experts who have seen a proposal.
Dont believe it. Someone has been pulling your leg.
It's a true story, asswhipe.
Do some research instead of surfing for porn.
<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/25seats.html?_r=1&oref=slogin>
It has been in the NY Times, LA times and Reuters but of course we
believe Mr. Welfare.
Dan Birchall
2006-04-28 01:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Airbus has been quietly pitching the standing-room-only option to
Asian carriers, though none have agreed to it yet. Passengers in the
standing section would be propped against a padded backboard, held
in place with a harness, according to experts who have seen a proposal.
Dont believe it. Someone has been pulling your leg.
Hmmm... dunno. Having worked in travel, and having flown a fair bit
(100,000 miles in the last 14 months), Asia's got some routes that
aren't really all that long, but see a LOT of passengers. Folks in
the US are used to smaller jets for a two-hour hop from, say, New
York to Chicago, and bigger ones for a trans-continental or
intercontinental flight. In Asia, that two-hour hop might be from
Hong Kong to Taipei, or Tokyo or Beijing to Seoul, for example...
and a 747, 777 or Airbus A330 is pretty typical. I still think it's
a crazy idea, but if you're dealing with a flight that's pretty
short anyway, comfort isn't going to be as much of a factor as it
would be on a longer one.
--
Screaming in Digital - http://scream.org/ - Queensryche fandom since 1991.
Al Bundy
2006-04-25 21:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
The airlines have come up with a new answer to an old question: How
many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early
stage should catch on: standing-room-only "seats."
I'm trying to envision how passengers would evacuate themselves, not
the plane itself. Are they strung up like sides of beef or can they
unhook themselves to "evacuate"? If they had curtains, the passengers
might evacuate in place.
Gordon Burditt
2006-04-25 23:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Bundy
I'm trying to envision how passengers would evacuate themselves, not
the plane itself. Are they strung up like sides of beef or can they
unhook themselves to "evacuate"? If they had curtains, the passengers
might evacuate in place.
There are existing methods for this, used on comatose patients and
patients in surgery. Urinary catheters are commonly used for people
who can't move or have to stay put (during surgery or while recovering)
for long periods of time. Enemas can take care of the other problem
(and I think that can be automated). For a really long flight,
there's also feeding tubes and IVs.

For security reasons, it's preferable that the passengers are nude
and asleep anyway, and it will cut down on the complaining and
concealed weapons.

Gordon L. Burditt
(PeteCresswell)
2006-04-30 23:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon Burditt
For security reasons, it's preferable that the passengers are nude
and asleep anyway, and it will cut down on the complaining and
concealed weapons.
FedEx your luggage and fly naked.

I like the sound of it...-)
--
PeteCresswell
Gordon Burditt
2006-05-01 00:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Gordon Burditt
For security reasons, it's preferable that the passengers are nude
and asleep anyway, and it will cut down on the complaining and
concealed weapons.
FedEx your luggage and fly naked.
I like the sound of it...-)
I can also see the possibilities for standardized containers for
shipping passengers via FedEx or USPS. And it might give new
meaning to the term "dead letter office".

Gordon L. Burditt

mrtravel
2006-04-26 01:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Bundy
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
The airlines have come up with a new answer to an old question: How
many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early
stage should catch on: standing-room-only "seats."
I'm trying to envision how passengers would evacuate themselves, not
the plane itself. Are they strung up like sides of beef or can they
unhook themselves to "evacuate"? If they had curtains, the passengers
might evacuate in place.
The passengers are free to move when the plane stops spinning.
While the plane is spinning, they are pinned against the wall like a
carnaval ride.
SMS
2006-04-25 22:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
The airlines have come up with a new answer to an old question: How
many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
<snip>

Yes the same story was in the International Herald Tribune.

I suppose that for short inter-island flights in Japan, it'd be no worse
than being packed into a subway car for 45 minutes.

I wonder if a plane with 800 passengers could pass the evacuation test,
where the plane must be evacuated in a certain amount of time.

The real problem for AirBus is that the A380 is shaping up to be a
commercial flop, so they are disparately trying to find new ways to sell
the plane. Configuring it as a "flying bus" and packing in the
passengers, is one new sales angle. Unfortunately, not a lot of airports
are going to be accommodate the A380, so this plan is probably not feasible.
Rod Speed
2006-04-25 22:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMS
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
The airlines have come up with a new answer to an old question: How
many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
<snip>
Yes the same story was in the International Herald Tribune.
I suppose that for short inter-island flights in Japan, it'd be no
worse than being packed into a subway car for 45 minutes.
I wonder if a plane with 800 passengers could pass the evacuation
test, where the plane must be evacuated in a certain amount of time.
The real problem for AirBus is that the A380 is shaping up to be a
commercial flop, so they are disparately trying to find new ways to
sell the plane. Configuring it as a "flying bus" and packing in the
passengers, is one new sales angle. Unfortunately, not a lot of
airports are going to be accommodate the A380, so this plan is
probably not feasible.
Yeah, yet another completely loony frog 'idea'
William Souden
2006-04-26 01:18:45 UTC
Permalink
We trust bowel boy over all these stories:



http://news.google.com/news?as_q=seats+standing&svnum=10&as_scoring=r&hl=en&ned=&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nsrc=&as_nloc=&as_occt=any&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=26&as_minm=3&as_maxd=25&as_maxm=4


Arkansas Times Airbus offers standing room 'seats'
CNN - 14 hours ago
... The standing room space would be only 25 inches front to back,
instead of only 30 inches now for the thinnest seats on commercial jets.
...
Standing-room 'seats,' slimmer backs are options Houston Chronicle
Ready for takeoff? Even if it's standing room? International Herald Tribune
No food, no water, no seat ... And you thought flying couldn't get ...
Times Online
Raw Story - Rocky Mountain News - all 34 related »
Airbus offers standing room 'seats'
Luchtzak Aviation, Belgium - 13 hours ago
Airlines are reportedly considering making sure their passengers, not
just their tray tables, are in the upright and locked position. ...

Gas Prices and Car Sales, Standing Room Only Airplanes, Airline ...
NBC 4.com, DC - 1 hour ago
... Standing room only, a new plane takes the seats away from airline
passengers. ... And there are no legal issues to standing room seats on
American airliners. ...


KARE Standing room only, the new way to fly?
KARE, MN - 7 hours ago
paying for refreshments, checking bags and aisle seats, no more pillows
or blankets and higher ticket ... Airbus is pitching a standing room
only airline cabin. ...
Flying cheaply may mean standing News & Observer
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Seats thinner, but legroom still the same
Cheapflights.com, MA - 11 hours ago
... a seat manufacturer in Texas, confirmed the reports: "We make the
seats thinner," he ... design, capable of holding up to 853 passengers in
nobody
2006-04-26 05:04:17 UTC
Permalink
Airbus recently conductued the evacuation tests with 853 passengers
seated in an all coach configuration.

The evacuation test seemed to give some spare time, indicating there may
be room for more passengers. But new tests would have to be conducted
for this.

"Standing" seats have the disadvantage of not providing stowage under
the seat in front of you. And you can't bend down to reach for luggage
at your feet.

Regulation do require that seats and seat belts be able to sustain a
certain number of G force during a crash. The concept of a standing seat
can work if it can meet those criteria. But it may have to be attached
to more than just the floor since the torque on a floor-only attach
point would be too much.

I think the idea of standing seats is that an airline could pack 853 in
a dual class config (tighter coach seating would leave room for business class).
Furious George
2006-04-26 00:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMS
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
The airlines have come up with a new answer to an old question: How
many passengers can be squeezed into economy class?
<snip>
Yes the same story was in the International Herald Tribune.
I suppose that for short inter-island flights in Japan, it'd be no worse
than being packed into a subway car for 45 minutes.
I wonder if a plane with 800 passengers could pass the evacuation test,
where the plane must be evacuated in a certain amount of time.
The real problem for AirBus is that the A380 is shaping up to be a
commercial flop, so they are disparately trying to find new ways to sell
the plane. Configuring it as a "flying bus" and packing in the
passengers, is one new sales angle. Unfortunately, not a lot of airports
are going to be accommodate the A380, so this plan is probably not feasible.
Wrong! It is very fortunate that not a lot of airports will accomodate
the A380. Otherwise this plan would be feasible.
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2006-04-26 01:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMS
The real problem for AirBus is that the A380 is shaping up to be a
commercial flop, so they are disparately trying to find new ways to sell
the plane. Configuring it as a "flying bus" and packing in the
passengers, is one new sales angle.
They need to be very careful they don't taint the A380 brand with options like
this. All it will take is Josephene Q Public to hear A380 and standing room, and
no other airline will be able to sell seats on one...
g***@softtracks.com
2006-04-26 18:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
All it will take is Josephene Q Public to hear A380 and standing room, and
no other airline will be able to sell seats on one...
I think most members of the flying public have no idea why type of
aircraft they're booked onto until they actually board, and even then
very few flyers in economy could tell the difference between an A320
and a 737, or between a 767, 777, A330 or A340.

Cheers,
Geoff Glave
Vancouver, Canada
k***@bowling.net
2006-04-26 18:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@softtracks.com
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
All it will take is Josephene Q Public to hear A380 and standing room, and
no other airline will be able to sell seats on one...
I think most members of the flying public have no idea why type of
aircraft they're booked onto until they actually board, and even then
very few flyers in economy could tell the difference between an A320
and a 737, or between a 767, 777, A330 or A340.
Cheers,
Geoff Glave
Vancouver, Canada
that's true, but even the most ignorant of the public knows the
difference between sitting down and standing up.

oh wait..scratch that... ;-)
Larry Bud
2006-04-26 18:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMS
The real problem for AirBus is that the A380 is shaping up to be a
commercial flop, so they are disparately trying to find new ways to sell
the plane. Configuring it as a "flying bus" and packing in the
passengers, is one new sales angle.
Isn't one of the reasons behind flying is so you don't have to take the
bus!?!?!
-L.
2006-04-26 05:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
New York Times
April 25, 2006
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
Oh FFS! As if we aren't crammed in like freaking sardines already!
-L.
Gordon Burditt
2006-04-26 06:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by -L.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
Oh FFS! As if we aren't crammed in like freaking sardines already!
No. You'll be crammed in like sardines when they put passengers
to sleep (for security reasons) and connect them up to catheters
(and for long flights, feeding tubes), and stack them. Following
the example of sardines, you could probably fit 3 in a coffin-sized
space. For that matter, for sardine packing, you could probably
fit 2 per seat in current airplanes.

Gordon L. Burditt
Scott en Aztlán
2006-04-26 13:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon Burditt
Post by -L.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
Oh FFS! As if we aren't crammed in like freaking sardines already!
No. You'll be crammed in like sardines when they put passengers
to sleep (for security reasons) and connect them up to catheters
(and for long flights, feeding tubes), and stack them. Following
the example of sardines, you could probably fit 3 in a coffin-sized
space. For that matter, for sardine packing, you could probably
fit 2 per seat in current airplanes.
But look on the bright side: you'd be naked and nicely oiled up. Could
actually be fun if you get the right seatmate...
Larry Bud
2006-04-26 18:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott en Aztlán
But look on the bright side: you'd be naked and nicely oiled up. Could
actually be fun if you get the right seatmate...
Has anyone EVER had a good seatmate?
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2006-04-26 22:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Bud
Has anyone EVER had a good seatmate?
Actually, yes. It doesn't happen often, but whenit does, the flight sure goes by
quickly...
George Grapman
2006-04-26 23:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
Post by Larry Bud
Has anyone EVER had a good seatmate?
Actually, yes. It doesn't happen often, but whenit does, the flight sure goes by
quickly...
I always bring a set of headphones with me. If the person is annoying
I simply excuse myself and say I want to see the movie/listen to music.
I then turn the volume off and read or sleep.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell
Furious George
2006-04-26 23:31:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Bud
Post by Scott en Aztlán
But look on the bright side: you'd be naked and nicely oiled up. Could
actually be fun if you get the right seatmate...
Has anyone EVER had a good seatmate?
Yes, whoever sits next to me has an awesome seatmate.
SMS
2006-04-27 08:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Bud
Post by Scott en Aztlán
But look on the bright side: you'd be naked and nicely oiled up. Could
actually be fun if you get the right seatmate...
Has anyone EVER had a good seatmate?
It's rare, but it does happen.
Sev
2006-04-27 14:11:41 UTC
Permalink
Wondering about the blood clot factor- how the cost of settling these
lawsuits will figure against the added seat revenues. Then again,
haven't had any responses to my suggestion for a new, discounted "cargo
class' personal containerized flight option with complimentary oxygen
service. Airbus needs to hire Temple Grandin as a consultant.
Frank F. Matthews
2006-04-27 16:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Is there a physician in the house? Personally and not based on
professional knowledge I would suspect that a 'standing seat' would
reduce the chance of blood clots.
Post by Sev
Wondering about the blood clot factor- how the cost of settling these
lawsuits will figure against the added seat revenues. Then again,
haven't had any responses to my suggestion for a new, discounted "cargo
class' personal containerized flight option with complimentary oxygen
service. Airbus needs to hire Temple Grandin as a consultant.
g***@softtracks.com
2006-04-27 16:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sev
Wondering about the blood clot factor- how the cost of settling these
lawsuits will figure against the added seat revenues.
Read the article. These "standing" seats would be for short flights.
I've often stood on the on the bus or subway for an hour or so.
Doesn't result in blood clots.

Cheers,
Geoff Glave
Vancouver, Canada
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